Hi,

I've been racing online for a while now (I'm 29, LFS/race gaming is just a hobby) and what I was looking for and was kind of hoping to get from LFS was clean and tight racing. I can appreciate ppl having great setups and records and spending hours on tracks but it's frustrating to have racers pass you 2-3 times in a race just because they are fast but crash allot too. I don't know if LFS was developed as a type of arcade game, where people care about records and winning at all costs... from my point of view, here are two improvements:

1. setup is way too permissive... we get it, people learn from it and that's a good thing but really putting all the physics in a sim is almost impossible so players that have the time can get away with allot from setup alone. Maybe have 2-3 types of shocks, 2-3 springs, 2-3 sway bars available, 2 gearboxes (low speed and high speed and so on)... I think you know what I mean... I know these days shocks have infinite setup options, but really, do real racers/teams get to 100.000 laps? At which costs? There's fuel, tires not to mention time, it takes more to try a setup in real-life than it is in a game where you click two times and that's it. If this is not economically viable to implement in LFS, maybe allow server admins to force default setups for all racers? That would be pretty cool anyway...

2. damage is way too permissive... and this leads to some anomalies... I've seen formula cars cutting the track lap after lap without any issues; you won't do that in real-life, not only because you'll probably bounce and spin (again, might be hard to put all the params in the sim), but also because this will cause damage to suspension, tires and maybe your brain :P ; also, consider that even hitting a kerb at certain angles could pop the tire off the rim... race over. There is damage simulation and effects are pretty cool, but it just comes up too late... I had to get out of my way to damage a car just to get some results that would make it undriveable/competitive... I won't end up to that point in real life due to internal bleeding...

cargame.nl had a go with classes and safety points but really, if people would drive with similar setups and take care of the cars programmers won't have to find almost impossible solutions to keep races clean, it will just come naturally... get too fast in a turn and off the track, it would be hard to catch up with someone that drives slower but consistent... same, hit someone in a turn and you might get both out of the race due to damage. Brake with care when someone is in front of you, and not because you are responsable according to clean racing guidelines (common sens as well but heck), but because you might damage the radiator if you hit someone too many times.

Both your points have been discussed and debated to death.

Suggested improvements log [READ before making a new thread]

General features:
+ Fixed / server side forced setups: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=38038

Damage and malfunction:
+ Wheel-to-wheel crash physics (open-wheelers)
+ Engines can stall
+ Parts that fall off when crashing
+ Tire damage from debris
+ Oil spills
+ Engine heat and damage:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2163
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1886
+ Perforation of fuel tanks during crashes
+ Tyres blow during crashes
+ Simulate undertray / diffuser damage
+ Broken mirrors: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19992
+ Clutch overheating
... Brake overheating
... Brake temperature and wear

---

Long story short, fast drivers will always be faster than you, regardless of how much you try to artificially level the playing field. Merely by virtue of being a sim, it's already about as purely level as possible.

If another driver's advantage is largely based upon the amount of free time available to them, restricting setups just means they'll have that much more time to practice rather than developing a setup.

The only way you're going to get better racing is by practicing and getting better and faster.

There's no point even debating this, as far as I understand a user with a setup/that cuts the track and is 13s faster than other users will always be 13s faster, no matter what...

Anyway, that's the way things are in online racing and it's hard to change that. Just one question, if everybody has talked about setup restrictions - and by the way, setup restrictions have been imposed in real championships exactly to keep racing fair, just can't remember the championship, it was in Europe I think - has this been tried in a server? If still online, what's the name?

If you think someone has a better setup than you, just ask them to share it. Can send setups ingame, generally people will do it since often they only found the setup on http://www.setupgrid.net/ anyway.

There is no good way to simulate the cost/time spent on setting up real life cars or buying tires, fuel money etc. Advantage of sim is that one does not have to wait 30 minutes for some mechanic to find the right tools.
And that nobody throws up or blacks out when going through twisty chicances, though maybe that will change with Oculus Rift VR glass thing

Many anomalies seen in LFS racing are result of race format used on cargame.nl and similiar servers: Short sprint races reward taking risks, so for slower but safer drivers it is harder.
Things change when races have more than 10 laps, setup wise too:
People with sprint-setups often retire because the tires do not last or suspension does not survive bumping over curbs or just because handling is good enough to drive reliable.

If you seriously are looking for "better online racing" than solution is this:
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/League_Racing_Guide
Sometimes a few regulations are used, like having two use both a hard and soft tire in same race. (like DTM forces atm)
I was also in some tournament where default setup was forced, checked by winner having to send his setup to admin for proof.
But more common is people just sharing their setups. So even if not everyone might use the same setup, it still means nobody has race with totally unsuited set. So the field is even, at least setup wise.

@Gutholz, I really think setups are personal, ie. what works for a driving style might not for for others. Frankly, I'm happy with my results, with 16 drivers on cargame.nl I started at the back but got points (3-8 finish position) with default setup by just staying in the race for the end.

The reason I've pointed out what I think needs improving is because it got to a point where things are just far from reality really... I don't want cracked mirrors... or ok, have them, but only after drivers loose suspension if they cut tracks in places where you'd loose the bumper in real-life and such.

Really, I've seen races online where the fastest player was 10th in a race, what's that saying. Also a very good point about race length, that is a factor too.

Quote from V8Li :

There's no point even debating this, as far as I understand a user with a setup/that cuts the track and is 13s faster than other users will always be 13s faster, no matter what...

If you're 13s per lap slower than someone, that's not your setup slowing you down. It's you. A good setup suited to your driving style should be worth 2 or 3 seconds per lap, tops.

Quote from V8Li :

Anyway, that's the way things are in online racing and it's hard to change that. Just one question, if everybody has talked about setup restrictions - and by the way, setup restrictions have been imposed in real championships exactly to keep racing fair, just can't remember the championship, it was in Europe I think - has this been tried in a server? If still online, what's the name?

By virtue of being a sim and not real life, you don't have the real-life constraint of money. Everything you do in real life racing takes a huge amount of money.

During a motorbike club racing weekend, I spend ~$600 USD between entry fees, fuel, and wear items. If I crash, that number skyrockets.

Setup restrictions in real life are merely a way of reducing this cost, because spending the time to develop a setup costs real money, and whomever has the most money has the most time to develop a setup. Likewise with limitations on testing.

Not so in a sim. It's merely down to who has the most free time, which as already stated, benefits those who have the most regardless of whether you restrict setups or not. This is because it is impossible to restrict testing. Restrictions on testing have been show to benefit those are most experienced anyway. I'm sure the same is true for setup restrictions: experienced drivers know how to drive around the limitations of a particular setup, while others struggle. A custom setup would allow a less experienced driver to have a car that masks some of their deficiencies.

You're missing my point... Like I said, I don't care much about records and I'm not saying that I should be first place exactly because I don't have the miles... However, I got to cargame.nl pretty fast to class 8 just by finishing races (95% safety or so too). At some point I just let everybody pass me at the start so I don't crush in first bend where 2-3 had to pit. Again, there are some in races with very good times that are consistent but you get others that have the best time and finish at poor positions or not finish at all... Also there were some that passed me once or twice, they were fast drifting all the time but crashing as well... Stuff like that got me wondering and I spectated first place, I think it was on Kyoto, after the oval he was cutting a chicane both ways. I was like "o, can you do that?" ))

It's the same on some other tracks that have far more restrictive kerbs, but still, you can slow a little so that you don't take off but still make good time as opposed of just making the turn or chicane clean...

My point is people might not want to look at others how to find flaws in the game, maybe the dev just missed that area that flags a cut track, in real life there's a person to tell you that you have 2 cuts left or get black. Of course, people can do the same with similar setups but really if you mess up cutting a track there's a chance for consistent drivers to pick up because of not having a massively developed setup as a plus.

A good gearbox setup can give you not only better acceleration but also better braking and mid-corner stability, so don't underestimate setups. You get 2-3 seconds on Blackwood but how about a longer track?

So dunno... was just looking for tight races, as long as players stay on the racing line, brake properly and exit decent in 10 laps Blackwood distance races you'll get 10 cars in 15 seconds...

Quote from V8Li :

At some point I just let everybody pass me at the start so I don't crush in first bend where 2-3 had to pit.

That's an effect of short, public races. League races are generally longer and don't see that with nearly the same frequency for reasons Gutholz stated: public races are generally very short and the penalty for crashing on lap 1 T1 is erased as soon as the next race starts. In a league, crashing people out on T1 repeatedly will get you kicked out of the league.

Quote from V8Li :

I think it was on Kyoto, after the oval he was cutting a chicane both ways. I was like "o, can you do that?" ))

It's the same on some other tracks that have far more restrictive kerbs, but still, you can slow a little so that you don't take off but still make good time as opposed of just making the turn or chicane clean...

Not so. There are typically two long straights both before and after the chicane, so slowing down to safe speeds for it costs you a ton of time.

LFS's chicanes are just really poorly designed.

Quote from V8Li :

My point is people might not want to look at others how to find flaws in the game, maybe the dev just missed that area that flags a cut track, in real life there's a person to tell you that you have 2 cuts left or get black. Of course, people can do the same with similar setups but really if you mess up cutting a track there's a chance for consistent drivers to pick up because of not having a massively developed setup as a plus.

A good gearbox setup can give you not only better acceleration but also better braking and mid-corner stability, so don't underestimate setups. You get 2-3 seconds on Blackwood but how about a longer track?

So dunno... was just looking for tight races, as long as players stay on the racing line, brake properly and exit decent in 10 laps Blackwood distance races you'll get 10 cars in 15 seconds...

Who made you race marshal? People are going to do whatever they can to get an advantage. That is what racing is about, not trundling about making sure you don't crash. The racing line is merely the fastest line. It is not restricted by your notions of what a "proper" racing line is.

I gave iRacing a try for the past 2 days, like I said I really don't have that much experience with online racing, so had to check it too since it gets great reviews... I started with a Mazda MX-5 Cup on Okayama Short course. I got some time trials and multi-car practices first and I was about 0.7s slower than the best drivers (it's a 2km). You can't make any setup changes when you first start but it might be that the other drivers could because they were higher rank, so can't know for sure, but I think I was slow. Anyway, I liked the fixed setup thing...

And I just had my first race and guess what, I won... This is the event results page: http://members.iracing.com/mem ... 1130074&custid=158185 . It was a 15 laps race and let me assure you I didn't even get on the grass one time in 15 laps, if you make the tiniest mistake and end up in the wall, race is over, the damage is very realistic. And really that's how everybody had to drive, you can see that some other drivers are higher class than me but no one took any chances, not even the 2nd driver in first corner because I kind of missed the start; all I had to do is keep the outside, he stayed on the inside but I got faster to next corner and he fell back... not even a contact, I was impressed about how clean the race started...

So I must say, a realistic damage model is a major pressure on the driver... LFS is fine and the consequences are spot on (the car geometry getting messed and such), but really they come too late, I mean you have to really damage the car. That means you can get away with many things and as a result people just drive messier. I got the point about LFS leagues where people drive better but really this was my entry-level experience in iRacing; we can safely match this to a public LFS server...

It sounds like you prefer iRacing's "safety first" mantra, so why don't you stick with that?

I think more than anything else, that shows how "pick-up racing" differs from organized race.
How clean the race is has little to do with damage model or something like that.
Difference is for the iRacing race you did some "time trials and multi-car practices" because it was an organized race. (even if maybe automatically organized instead of by community)
cargame.nl LFS server is for public racing and there is no such preperation:
There is no schedule which track/car will be used, it is impossible to prepare.
People jump on server and drive. Of course it is more choatic.
LFS has organized racing with schedules too, there it is different.
No matter how much drivers fear damaging the car or fear of penalaties: nothing helps as much to keep race the clean as drivers who have some practice.
Does not need much to keep race clean: handful of laps plus 20min qualifying session is usually enough to make huge difference...

Quote from V8Li :

I gave iRacing a try for the past 2 days, like I said I really don't have that much experience with online racing, so had to check it too since it gets great reviews... I started with a Mazda MX-5 Cup on Okayama Short course. I got some time trials and multi-car practices first and I was about 0.7s slower than the best drivers (it's a 2km). You can't make any setup changes when you first start but it might be that the other drivers could because they were higher rank, so can't know for sure, but I think I was slow. Anyway, I liked the fixed setup thing...

And I just had my first race and guess what, I won... This is the event results page: http://members.iracing.com/mem ... 1130074&custid=158185 . It was a 15 laps race and let me assure you I didn't even get on the grass one time in 15 laps, if you make the tiniest mistake and end up in the wall, race is over, the damage is very realistic. And really that's how everybody had to drive, you can see that some other drivers are higher class than me but no one took any chances, not even the 2nd driver in first corner because I kind of missed the start; all I had to do is keep the outside, he stayed on the inside but I got faster to next corner and he fell back... not even a contact, I was impressed about how clean the race started...

So I must say, a realistic damage model is a major pressure on the driver... LFS is fine and the consequences are spot on (the car geometry getting messed and such), but really they come too late, I mean you have to really damage the car. That means you can get away with many things and as a result people just drive messier. I got the point about LFS leagues where people drive better but really this was my entry-level experience in iRacing; we can safely match this to a public LFS server...

IRL a car can be knocked about quite a bit and still drive fine aslong as its not damaged things like the chassis,driveshafts ect which can take some doing in certain cars.