I'd like to see the devs rethink their demo system.

At the moment, demo users can get unlimited time with one track, but multiple configurations, 3 cars and ability to connect to and use InSim system.

I think this should change.

Some alternate choices;

Time limit - although I can see all these demo users just setting up new online account to start again. Unless....

Link demo account to a credit/bank account/paypal? If time limit implemented, and LFS sees the same account being used for 'new' demo user, then it knows this is repeat, and refuses.

Lap limiter - once you've done a certain number of laps, say a thousand, you should know whether you like something or not. And if you do that many laps, then answer likely not to be no. So LFS gives an automatic spec - you get to see what you're missing.

Set limiter - one user set per car, while still keeping standard Hard Race set.

Nag screen - once someone has done a certain amount of time or laps, then a big message appears, and stays for a while (making it very difficult to get round corners / finish lap), reminding you that you have been using demo for that amount of time / laps. This is repeated at regular intervals.

Track - after certain number of laps / time, lose the ability to use all of the Blackwood configurations - maybe just limit it to the car-park area.

Cars - after certain number of laps / time, lose one of the cars (say FBM first), then after another number of laps / time, lose another car.

Laps - limit number of laps that can be driven in one go - maybe maximum of 5 at a time.

Spec/Nag - after every so many total laps done (say 100), you get automatically spec'd into a nag screen.

InSim - No ability to use or connect to any InSim.

Microtransactions - as things (cars / track configurations) are taken away from the demo users, for a small fee they can add them back in for a short time - maybe 99c / 99p per? Or subscription to keep demo going for another month? Again, something like 99c / 99p per. I would be prepared to bet that all these demo users complaining of having no money, still manage to pay for downloads (music and apps) for their smartphones.

Adverts - maybe a banner ad running along bottom 10th or so of screen. Then it moves to top. Then back to bottom. Then top......

Thing is, most demo users are likely to have a smartphone (given a choice of what to spend your hard earned money on, would you buy smartphone or pc first?), and if they do have smartphone, they will be used to time limits, nag screens, adverts, microtransactions, and in-app purchases. More importantly, likely they will have had to already link their bank / credit card details with their account to sign up to being able to download apps from whatever store (itunes / android / windows, etc) they use.

Of course, for those not already having a bank account, credit card or online payment account, they may not be in position of buying license so not really losing a prospective customer. At least not in the short term. If they have been demo player for long time, and they like game, and then come into some money, then there’s every incentive for them to now buy license if they can’t become a demo player again.

As things stand, demo users have no real incentive to progress to buying an LFS license, but some of them think as demo users they are entitled to still more for free.

Don't agree. Demo is a demostration version of software. And it is very limited - just 1 environment with 3 configurations (from which one is just empty lot),3 cars,12 drivers on track. Also no layouts possible,no skin uploads (unless purchased). Sounds pretty limited to me and when I did not had my licence yet,I wasn't too interested to play demo.
Bigger problem would be illegal access to content - I read that there is even a russian website,that simulates LFSW with all the features,so this is where the money for devs is lost - these players have everything for free,why buy? I suppose hands of devs are too short to reach owners of this website in country,where rights of software distributors have such low value.

I personally think that the only thing that should be limited for demo users is online capabilities. They should be limited to 12 hours of track time (only counts when you are on the track) and when that runs out they can choose between paying for more time or buying a license. To stop them from creating another account they shouldn't have to put in any bank details (if i was creating a free account i would find that dubious and would click away) and instead LFS should keep your IP so that no new licenses could be made from that IP.

Quote from k_badam :

I personally think that the only thing that should be limited for demo users is online capabilities. They should be limited to 12 hours of track time (only counts when you are on the track) and when that runs out they can choose between paying for more time or buying a license. To stop them from creating another account they shouldn't have to put in any bank details (if i was creating a free account i would find that dubious and would click away) and instead LFS should keep your IP so that no new licenses could be made from that IP.

Getting a new IP is easier then drinking a cup of coffee, so that won't help.
It would be better to get and store some hardware ID and compare that when someone connects.

I agree with sinanju. In this situation I dont have a real stimulation to buy a license because I pratically have all the features that I'd like to have and I'm already fine with BlackWood track and the 3 demo cars.

If demo were replaced with a "S0" license with same contents like current demo (but with the possibility to have 15 players on the track xD), I would be the first one who would buy it.

In this way a new concept of demo should be thought, though.

And regarding that russian website, yeah, it's really a shame that it exists.

Quote :

Nag screen - once someone has done a certain amount of time or laps, then a big message appears, and stays for a while (making it very difficult to get round corners / finish lap), reminding you that you have been using demo for that amount of time / laps. This is repeated at regular intervals.

This will make it easy to spot demo drivers.

-Personally, I have being on Demo for 5 almost 6 years, and it's not because I don't want to buy S2 or S3 license nor be like "f**k devs, ama pir4te m8", but the problem is that I don't have a credit card nor think of having one in the future, then for me its like a far "dream". And its perfect the way Demo is right now, it doesn't need any change so far.
I love LFS and what devs do to it, its my favorite Simulator I have played, and I disagree about the time limitation.

-Doing everything you say, would totally kill LFS, LFS is popular because of its' content, its' free-limit Demo and its' community.

-In my country, Argentina, it is a pain in the butt getting/buying stuff from the exterior, believe me. Here are the prices of Sx licenses in my currency (ARS):
S1: 12 GBP = 249,88 ARS
S2: 24 GBP = 499,75 ARS
S3: 36 GBP = 749,63 ARS

-If I even dare to buy S1, I have to pay a 35% of the original price. And know what? This applies when you buy something in excess of 25 dollars. YES, 25 USD is the max amount where you don't have to pay that 35% recharge, and you can only buy Twice per year. Here are the results of the 35% recharge:
S1: 249,88 ARS 35% = 87,45 ARS
S2: 499,75 ARS 35% = 174,91 ARS
S3: 749,63 ARS 35% = 262,37 ARS
-Now add the 35% recharge to the original product, to obtain the product final price:
S1: 337,33 ARS
S2: 674,66 ARS
S3: 1012 ARS

-I don't even sweve when I say I'll will S2/S3 license some day, but for now, I'll wait till S3 gets more content, and if I will to get a credit card some day (I don't think it'll happen, but who knows), and maybe that day will change.
-And ye, I think Demo has the enough content for its' name.
-Ofc that everyone here, included me, hates those crackers, even if LFS gets the best software to prevent cracking, there'll be always someone who can bypass it and make profit out of it. Same happens with mods, even with 0.6 restrictions, more VOB mods keep going out, even if they may get support in the future and it's not recommended to use VOB mods to avoid errors, some ppl will still use them, and its also one of the reasons LFS is popular among other reasons.

that did not exist demo
lfs he would have died
to much people living in country without the possibility of credit cards
if we do that withholding the people bit of luck

Quote from Gutholz :

This will make it easy to spot demo drivers.

good one

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

but the problem is that I don't have a credit card nor think of having one in the future,

This..

I never realized paying for LFS was such a problem for so many people until S3 came out and even S2 licensed people had trouble to get a S3 license (mainly because they got S2 as a present from their parents or something else happened years before so they got licensed). Steam would tackle this problem because it has easier pay accessibility (it seems).

I think the illegal sh*t versus legal would be balanced much better.

Quote from cargame.nl :

This..

I never realized paying for LFS was such a problem for so many people until S3 came out and even S2 licensed people had trouble to get a S3 license (mainly because they got S2 as a present from their parents or something else happened years before so they got licensed). Steam would tackle this problem because it has easier pay accessibility (it seems).

I think the illegal sh*t versus legal would be balanced much better.

-It's not a matter of being an ass saying "will not buy bcuz of X", but I think you can understand that not everyone can buy the license easily. Not everyone has the age of buying it, nor their parents won't borrow they credit cards because it is used for more important expenses to say so (not my case for both). If you see the calculations I made, you can see that apart from being not so cheap (Not that I say that it need to cost 2usd, but you know, 36GBP for one track is way too much, but thats another subject not to debate here), I would have to pay a 35% recharge, not to mention that I'd have to deal with "AFIP (Agencia Federal de Ingresos Públicos)" in english as "Federal Public Revenue Agency (FPRA)", where you need to declare Where you got those usd, how much do you earn in your job per month, and if they wish to, they come to your house and inspect from above to below to find the money and take it.

-Believe me, Argentina is not the best country to buy stuff from the exterior.
Not to mention that 12 years of populist government take us almost to a pit, not to mention the usual "homeland" speech for low-IQ ppl, and that we Need to invest in our country and not buy usd because you become a traitor, literally.

I do understand all these issues but looking at the bigger picture much more licenses could easily be sold which has a suction effect on other people which all of a sudden are also buying it just because others are doing this.

Example: I was fine myself with demo until some friend got a license as Xmas present and was very much raving about it. Then I said okay, let's see what this is all about. Argentinia (or Latin America in general) already is fairly represented in the licensed environment. If people have more paying options this would improve, I am sure of it.

Another problem is that the main website is not multi lingual. Spanish is in top 3 of spoken world languages (actually higher ranked then English) and could have more attention.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Another problem is that the main website is not multi lingual.

Oh, good point. LFS itself has all kind of translations but the website does not.
When my friend wanted to buy license I had to talk him through the process on phone.
He regularly uses ebay and amazon or webshops like conrad.de etc but english was not sufficient to figure out the english LFS shop.

Actually with the changes I am not sure anymore how excactly it works either.
Especially from various countries...? Maybe someone who knows this better can write it down, in forum or on wiki at lfsmanual.net and then it can get added to site or so?

Nobody reads this, it should be done 'live'.. Victor has to change everything into language vars and then let the community do the translations. Then can make a selection of flags to choose from or even more crazy set a default according to IP location. Google also likes this for SEO (multi-language).

All this is obviously quite some work. But hey, income is income

Quote from sinanju :

I'd like to see the devs rethink their demo system.

At the moment, demo users can get unlimited time with one track, but multiple configurations, 3 cars and ability to connect to and use InSim system.

I think this should change.

I think special for you need set subscription for play £36 per month.

My pay (it's good pay) around £360. Are you really think that some would buy game at 10% of pay?

@repeat83 that is £432 a year, that is waaay too much for anyone to be paying for anything game/sim related, it be even more than iRental. Sorry iRacing

Quote from Eclipsed :

Don't agree. Demo is a demostration version of software. And it is very limited - just 1 environment with 3 configurations (from which one is just empty lot),3 cars,12 drivers on track. Also no layouts possible,no skin uploads (unless purchased). Sounds pretty limited to me....

Problem is that the demo isn't limited demonstration; it's a free game that has 3 cars and a track with multiple configurations. It would appear sufficient as a 'full' game for a lot of people.

And are you saying people are unable to decide within 1,000 laps or a set time (I was actually thinking 3 to 6 months, but neglected to write that) whether this game is for them or not?

Skin uploads - I've seen plenty of posts from demo users asking for their skins to be uploaded, and licensed users doing this for them.

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

...LFS is popular because of its' ... free-limit Demo and its' community...

Of course its popular; its free.

As I wrote above, its a free game with some cars and tracks. And you can race anytime you want, with people all over the world. For nothing.

I got such as deal on an app for my smartphone, I'd be more than happy.

Thing is that lots of things are popular, but in almost every single case, it costs. Even to be a spectator, such as at a car race, a stadium event (sport, concert, etc). Even a picnic - you have to buy food, drink, pay to get somewhere (fuel or fares) if more than few miles away. Free is not helping developers pay for their time. Because of this, they may have to take other jobs to pay for their lives, like most other people, and could end up giving up on LFS.

As far as community goes, demo user wise, maybe I've got blinkers, but I see a lot of 'I want', 'I should have', 'why can't I have?'.

Also,

Quote from Ibtasim6781 :

...-In my country, Argentina, it is a pain in the butt getting/buying stuff from the exterior...

This is not the developers fault. Why should they be out of pocket for something that happens in another country.

I realise for a lot of the people on this planet, that affording to pay for ANY game will be a struggle. But more and more people seemingly are able to afford smartphones (if mine breaks, I'd have to rely on my old Nokia 3109, as I couldn't afford to get a modern phone. And a lot of people with smartphones are happy paying for bits of things (apps, music tracks, etc) in microtransactions. For them, they're happy to pay 99c / 99p rather than something in it's entirity that may cost 9.99 and more.

When I bought the game, I'd read a review in a gaming magazine (remember them?), and bought an S2 license before I even knew there was a demo. There was no demo on the cd that came with the mag, so I assumed the game didn't have one. May seem silly now, but 10 years ago, the internet was still new to a lot of people, and probably something they only ever used at work.

Likely what I feel about demo users and their wants and demands is an age thing (I'm nearer to 60 than 50 now ). I'd never imagine that as a demo user, that I should feel that I am entitled to same as someone who's paid for the game.

And I realise, that ultimately, this is a decision for the developers, and one that they seem to be able to live with, as they have made no change to the demo / license system for all the time I've been involved in LFS (I think, but my memory may be bad here).

Quote from sinanju :

in microtransactions. For them, they're happy to pay 99c / 99p rather than something in it's entirity that may cost 9.99 and more.

Selling a product is how easy it is for a customer to pay for it. It's too complicated now.

I did around 150 laps on blackwood before I bought S2 back in 2009 or whatever. Demo users can spend a long time on the demo track but will eventually get tired of blackwood and buy the game (like me).

These limits might "force" demo users to buy LFS, but the people who cannot afford the game are less likely to return once they can afford it if they are shut out from demo.

My cents

If I want to race an open wheel car, FBM@BL1 community is the only thing that I can jump in almost any time (sometimes even that combo gets empty all around the server browser).

I've been Demo for a long time, and I had a lot of friends there. And I can say that almost everyone I played a lot with, wanted to buy an S2 (back then), but had no possibility to do it. Some of them do not have credit card, some of them can not even dare to ask their parents, etc.

Ofcourse there is big part (I would say around 50%) of those who do not want to buy license, again, most of them just aren't ready to spend their money.

I don't get the idea on why would liced users would want that anyway. It won't add as much liced users to community, as it would wipe demo world. And also it would require a lot of work to implement all the limiting stuff. Also, once people have something for free, they will be raged if someone takes that from him, provoking even bigger pirate activity.

Demo for years now, i suggest this doesnt actually happen or you'll kill the game just like many famous old racing games that used this technique, not everyone can afford the game nor pay trought the internet so i suggest they add more stuff into the Demo version

Quote from RaZMorocco :

Demo for years now, i suggest this doesnt actually happen or you'll kill the game just like many famous old racing games that used this technique, not everyone can afford the game nor pay trought the internet so i suggest they add more stuff into the Demo version

I can agree on the part about not beying able to pay through the internet, but I strongly disagree about the part of adding more stuff into the Demo version.
I also like to question the part about not being able to afford the game.
I've seen a lot of demo users, who aren't able/willing to pay for LFS, but are able to rent servers and run their cruise servers (even with cracked LFS versions).
If you can afford to rent a server (which usualy costs money each month), you surely can affort paying for LFS.
So no, there's enough content in the Demo version and while I agree this should be for free to make it playable for everyone, I do think it's a good idea to shutdown the insim protol in the Demo version.
Although that will probably cracked as well, so it might not be worth the effort.

Quote from RaZMorocco :

Demo for years now ....

Like a lot of other demo racers, some of whom likely have no intention of ever buying a license, as happy enough with the free game they've got.

Quote from RaZMorocco :

i suggest this doesnt actually happen or you'll kill the game just like many famous old racing games that used this technique

Most 'old' racing game demos came on a cd, when you bought a computer game magazine. How many of these games still exist? Some were unlimited, but some had time constraints, or track/car constraints.

Quote from RaZMorocco :

not everyone can afford the game nor pay through the internet

I understand that not everyone can afford even an S1 licence, and that there are purchasing issues. But, again, not LFS developers fault.
I don't have a tv - it broke, and I can't afford a replacement, not even 2nd hand. I have experience of having had and used one, so when I can ever afford a replacement, I'll likely get one. In mean time, I do without.

Quote from RaZMorocco :

i suggest they add more stuff into the Demo version

So even less incentive to actually buy a license.

And where does the "add more stuff" end?

It seems to me that a lot of people have forgot, or have never known, what "demo" actually means.

In a game, as in other things, its a demonstration of a product to show the capabilities of what you would be getting if you paid for it, as in (especially) does it work on your pc, does it look / play sufficiently well, do you like it?

3 to 6 months and/or 1000 lap limit is more than sufficient for a 'demo' in my opinion.

What's the point in limiting demo even more? Spending valuable time by implementing more limitations in one man dev team? There are far more important things to work on. Those limitations will only "force" people to use online crack ...

I was too, long time demo user and even after I have bought licence I'm still mostly racing on demo server, blackwood is nice track and GTi cars too.

Leave it as it is now and drop the player 12/15 demo limit.

No. Demo is as limited as it needs to be.