I searched for the old thread on this but it got closed after everything at the time was sorted out.

I was reading the threads about Phols and I also saw that the test patch thread got closed...

I have to say, I'm shocked at the attitude towards the devs lately - we are lucky to have the devs posting and talking to us here, and as such we should respect them. Don't treat them like normal forum posters because they're not. Its not really just a matter of lack of respect froma handful of users anymore, but much more serious. I'm sure that a big part of the reason why Scawen, Victor and Eric are in this project is because they enjoy it - please don't take that away from them because they deserve it. If they were just in it for the moeny, people as capable as them could quite easily find more profitable jobs.

If you're gonna request features in the test patch threads, make sure they are urgent/important and not too difficult to code or they are on topic. If you are uncertain, then just don't request features there. Simple, yet so many people get it wrong and every 3rd post doesn't belong there. For example, requesting textures for sand on the tyres there is just plain dumb. Using abnormally large quantities of LFS server bandwidth without asking for permission from the devs is inappropriate. Back-chatting the devs or revealing a private message exchange that you had with the devs publically is totally disrespectful. When the devs give you a warning, be it via PM or in a thread, they probably have their reasons even if you can't understand them.

What happened to this place? I used to love posting here a few months ago, because I could always expect an intelligent resposnse. Now I can't even stand reading the threads.

All we need is some new LFS content, so the people have better things to do then to bitch around.

"Please be more careful with the devs" suggests wrong things - a better would be "be respectful with the devs and with their work".

When I read the Victor's last post about holidays and morons on the forum, it struck me a bit. There is and certainly has been more "wtf you're posting here" attitude towards newcomers here lately, but that's the way it has always been here. If you post on wrong thread or some people think that the thread is useless, they WILL TELL IT TO YOU, with the "at your face attitude". Let's not remember the demo/S2 police squads or other-sim-bashers.

I'd like to seee more more more constructive and encouraging posts - now I see people getting hammered because they didn't 100% understand the topic or made a point or a suggestion that has been seen thousands of times.

See this post as an example:http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=191211#post191211. And that is not even the worst...I wish we would see less that in future

Some people need to grow up, I hope I will one day too

Two ways to solve this problem...

1) People need to treat the devs more like users, and users more like devs.

2) More moderating. It's time consuming, yes, but it NEEDS to be done. I'm sorry if that upsets the "open and free" policy of the forum, but too much freedom leads to anarchy, and this is just the preview of that. If there's not enough mods to accomplish scanning 95% of threads and editing posts if necessary, then there should be more mods. The more people see an offensive post, the more people will reply to it. (when you edit a post, just leave a note stating why you edited it... Saves you arguments in PM)

For the good of LFS, something NEEDS TO BE DONE... Both by us users and the people running this show.

Or someone to start a nice technical conversation that can't end up with too many flames going around. The NOS thread is a perfect example of how not to make a thread (even though there are some intelligent and technical contributions about the substance in there).

So, anyone want to start a discussion about sometime like dampers or brake modelling or something.

@Tag: +1

Quote from tristancliffe :

Or someone to start a nice technical conversation that can't end up with too many flames going around. The NOS thread is a perfect example of how not to make a thread (even though there are some intelligent and technical contributions about the substance in there).

So, anyone want to start a discussion about sometime like dampers or brake modelling or something.

I still love that thread for being completely off-topic (it really was about the NOS installer)

As for a discussion... That's just one thread... We should be able to have some fun on here too, but that (non-serious) part is getting waayyyy out of hand of late.

Quote from GP4Flo :

All we need is some new LFS content, so the people have better things to do then to bitch around.

Good Joke Flo, Haha.

So we have no new lfs content? Yes, of course.

• It's no new content that collision detection was improved a lot in some T-Testpatch (now known as Patch U).
  
• It's no new content that the track selection screen has been heavily improved.
  
• It's no new content that the minimap is now better visible and you can actually see the driving-direction of cars.
  
• It's no new content that LfS now already has a nice-featured scripting systen.
  
• It's no new content that LfS has now an even better autocross editor with marshal objects, restricted areas and hidden checkpoints.
  
• It's no new content that Victor recently coded a SMS Live-Alert system so I was informed at once when patch S came out. The Hoster of the SMS-Server will "of course" let ScaViEr use their service for free.
  

I did not even take the patch S improvements into account, and you say we need more content? These developers named Scawen, Victor and Eric are doing so much for us. They are actually reading nearly all of our suggestions and try to put as much as possible of it into the game and the websites. The least thing they need are users that are bitchin around the forums, revealing PM correspondation to the public or even using 12GB of the traffic the devs pay for for just showing us a simple chart containing the count of demo-racers and s1 and s2 licensed racers. Please people, think about your behaviour on this forums.

With a big "thankyou" and greetins from school,
Stalker

edited

Quote from TagForce :

I still love that thread for being completely off-topic (it really was about the NOS installer)

As for a discussion... That's just one thread... We should be able to have some fun on here too, but that (non-serious) part is getting waayyyy out of hand of late.

I re-read the first post of that topic again yesterday with a view to the NOS installer. And I really can't see it. The way it's worded means I'm 99.999% sure it was about Nitrous Oxide. Then the jokes about installing with Nitrous came out. Then it got a bit heavy when people tried to defend NOS.

If it was about the installer (i.e. the original poster confirms that) then I'll eat an object of your choosing.

I am in agreement with Axus... Imagine you are the developer of LFS and you turn your computer on, go to the lfsforum website and read all od those useless posts. Especially the two threads that were locked today by Victor. I would feel quite disappointed with the community as a whole as the number of flames when a thread appears that is of no interest to some people, if the thread is pointless to you then why post in it another pointless stupid comment...... we dont care what you really think, and i dont really want to read what you think of a certain thread. It may actually be interesting for some people, ive seen this too many times.

The community has started to turn onto itself, and its is going down hill day by day. I wasnt at all suprised reading through the Phlos related threads that Victor got so angry towards the end, I really feel for the devs. Samething with the Scawen test patch thread, a number of times i wanted to post in there a comment to remind people that its not a request thread but i stopped myself from doing so as i would be adding another useless post to a thread that is meant to be all about bugs... Sooner or later i was expecting a post from Scawen remind people its not a request thread. Its why a whole new section was added to the forum but for what ever reason people just insist on posting silly requests.

I dont think people realise how lucky we are to have to devs communicating with the community, how often do you see a game where the develpers actually listen to their community andtake some of their suggestions onboard and actually implement them into the game.. cant really think of any of the top of my head... But soon i feel we may loose this communications if continues.

@TagForce: More moderation is certainly the way, although not many people will be too happy about it but i think it is the only way to make a point. After a while people would then learn and think twice about a thread they want to post. I understand the moderators have their lives to live and cant be here 24/7 so why doesnt the moderator role go to someone who lives on this forum day in day out. I have noticed that a number of people spend most of the day on the forum (wont mention names) and are here nearly everyday of the week. This way they can keep more of an eye out....

@Tristan: Technical threads are certainly the cleanest around here as everyone isnt a wizzkid so they are too afraid to post... I certainly welcome more technical discussions, gives me a chance to learn something.

mad

jeez, you all sound like a bunch of old women

Here's the deal. You can complain all you want, close threads, and talk crap to everyone and their mother (devs included) but you are not going to change the forum. I ran one for 4 years and if there is one thing I learned, its that everyone is always right, just ask them. You're not going to stop the bitching and complaining. For some reason people think thats what this place is here for. The other problem lies in the fact that you cannot express emotion through the typed word.

So, all those complaining about how bad the forums are....get used to it I'm affraid. Its certainly not going to change over night (if at all). I wish it would so they devs could have more time to work on the game and less time to spend cleaning house over here....


**disclaimer** this is not directed at one person or group. I've not read everything regarding these latest issues, this is just based on what I see all over the forums**

Quote from St4Lk3R :

So we have no new lfs content? Yes, of course.

But how many of those new (rather small) features did you have on your "I'd like to have this in LFS" TOP5 list? I bet none.

Quote from TagForce :

2) More moderating. It's time consuming, yes, but it NEEDS to be done. I'm sorry if that upsets the "open and free" policy of the forum, but too much freedom leads to anarchy, and this is just the preview of that. If there's not enough mods to accomplish scanning 95% of threads and editing posts if necessary, then there should be more mods.

True... how many mods do we even have? Only 3 (Scawen, Vicc and Scirocco)?

Quote from tristancliffe :

So, anyone want to start a discussion about sometime like dampers.....

See the Setups section.

Quote from deggis :

True... how many mods do we even have? Only 3 (Scawen, Vicc and Scirocco)?

...Gunn, Fonnybone, Janezki, Victor and I guess Xcnuse is mod on the skins section... and who did I forget?

Quote from St4Lk3R :

Good Joke Flo, Haha.

So we have no new lfs content? Yes, of course.

• It's no new content that collision detection was improved a lot in some T-Testpatch (now known as Patch U).
  
• It's no new content that the track selection screen has been heavily improved.
  
• It's no new content that the minimap is now better visible and you can actually see the driving-direction of cars.
  
• It's no new content that LfS now already has a nice-featured scripting systen.
  
• It's no new content that LfS has now an even better autocross editor with marshal objects, restricted areas and hidden checkpoints.
  
• It's no new content that Victor recently coded a SMS Live-Alert system so I was informed at once when patch S came out. The Hoster of the SMS-Server will "of course" let ScaViEr use their service for free.

I did not even take the patch S improvements into account, and you say we need more content? These developers named Scawen, Victor and Eric are doing so much for us. They are actually reading nearly all of our suggestions and try to put as much as possible of it into the game and the websites. The least thing they need are users that are bitchin around the forums, revealing PM correspondation to the public or even using 12GB of the traffic the devs pay for for just showing us a simple chart containing the count of demo-racers and s1 and s2 licensed racers. Please people, think about your behaviour on this forums.

With a big "thankyou" and greetins from school,
Stalker

I don't say we need more content, I just say that all that bitching would probably stop if the kids have something new to play.

And yes, these things you mentioned are NOT new content. These are some minor features, but nothing new. Don't tell me you sit there and watch the super new track selection screen for hours.

Don't understand me wrong, my post was not meant to criticise the devs. I'm happy with the cars and tracks I have and I totally agree with the rest of your post. This was just my explanation why there were so many ugly posts in the last weeks.

P.s. The last change of the collision detection was over a year ago when we tested the pre-alpha demo.

The devs are ALL adults, in the adult (namely the "real" world), we have to put up with people we don't like, and the things they say, I am sure (no, positive) the devs are thick-skinned and sensible enough to shrug the majority of it off, and they certainly don't need a LFS forum hitsquad to protect them.........

Dan,

Quote from turbo4door :

jeez, you all sound like a bunch of old women

I don't understand why you have to say something like that to be honest, to seperate yourself from those who posted above or a sign of disapproval?

I've also been to forum for years and I must say that reflective posts of such kind will always appear as long as there are people who cares about the community from a holistic perspective. We ain't that naive to try changing the forum with a coupe of post, it's just that something has to be said and it's all part of forum life. People with opinions should speak up as long as it doesn't pissed of each other.

If you are to enlighten us about the "reality" of a forum, thanks but I don't get why should we be compared to a bunch of old women.

If you are complaining about us complaining, then what's the difference.

There's a couple of things I noticed the last couple of days, basically the last two weeks. And I think they are related to several things going on at the forum right now.

We just had a grand total of 19 testpatches, all released shortly after another. It's been a while (relatively!) since the last testpatch.
This can have several reasons, i'm just guessing.
First guess: Scawen is working on some more complex stuff or some of the bugs that he wants fixed need more investigation and/or time.
Second guess: he actually has a life and he has been spending some more time with his family.
Both guesses seem plausible and acceptable reasons to me. But ofcourse I could be totally wrong, and it could be something completely different.

I noticed a decrease in posts and replies after a periode of relative silence from Scawen. Understandable, because ofcourse one of the reasons for people to come on the forum is to see if there's any news about the development.

After that there was an increase in posts and replies again. However, a big part of them are related to the development of the game, mainly concerning more content, mods, development speed, etc. Stuff that has been discussed over and over and over, and.... I feel that once people are accostumed to regular updates it's hard for them to accept there will be periods with less updates. So people start digging up the same topics again. How Scawen should bring in more people because he is starting to lose ground to other sims, and how the customer is entitled to updates, how the developers should give the customer what they want, how this sim is going nowhere, why Scavier is no different from EA, how we desperately need an SDK to make mods....
Some people just clearly don't know what type of game they bought and what the dev's motivation and philosophy is towards LFS.

Related to the above, I would advice people to read this old entertaining topic: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643
It mainly consists of rubbish, but if you read Scawen's comments I hope you can see why they're doing things the way they are doing it. And I hope that people will finally accept their way of making their sim. There's no use trying to convince them they need more devs on board. Why? Because they simply don't want to do it that way, and they have said this many times already. You are ofcourse free to agree or disagree with that, but please respect and accept the way it is and shall remain.

disclaimer: All the above is just my view and not directed to anyone in particular.

Atleast it's not like the BF2 forums, where everyone just wants to kill EA...

Quote from danowat :

The devs are ALL adults, in the adult (namely the "real" world), we have to put up with people we don't like, and the things they say, I am sure (no, positive) the devs are thick-skinned and sensible enough to shrug the majority of it off, and they certainly don't need a LFS forum hitsquad to protect them.........

Dan,

They don't, but we do... It's not about protecting the devs at all (they can defend themselves rather effectively)... It's about creating a community that has an effective governing body. The past few months it has become painfully clear that differences of opinion cannot be discussed here without insulting eachother or entire groups of people. Even though that's the first rule of the forum. If it's not possible to moderate that with the current crew, then there needs to be more crewmembers.

Quote from Hyperactive :

"Please be more careful with the devs" suggests wrong things - a better would be "be respectful with the devs and with their work".

Even better would be "please be more respectfull with everyone"

just wondering, when you view someones profile, it has "refferals: " then a number (always 0 on all ive seen). what exactly are these referals for, are they for misconduct or something.

Quote from GP4Flo :

All we need is some new LFS content, so the people have better things to do then to bitch around.

Maybe there might be possibility for more content coming soon but it really depend if it suits to the plan of DEVs.Lets hope there is always possibility to change the plans.
On the other hand maybe the devs want to finish S2 as soon as possible and start working on S3 so the additional content could come later...who know .

I understand the Axus`s point above as well but its another useless thread.We will have another xx pages discussion where people will be moaning,accusing others,devs etc.I am really tired with all these thread.

The moderators stronger action/work(I am not talking about Scavier now)would be more then welcome.As I said there is mess right now at least in this section and I see hardly any mod doing their work here.I know its not their job but if they cant do that properly we need more moderators for that.

Please stop with these kind of threads like "why everybody hate Phlos" etc.I am getting really fed up by all these things.

P.S:People in LFS comunity had in 0.1-0.2 demos so huge respect to each other including the DEVs and this is becoming all lost in dust..... .No respet here on forum,no respect on track.This was great comunity and I still consider it is but is it starting turning to the wrong direction.

I have always had respect for the Devs and the fantastic game they have given us the opportunity to play. However i think respect works boths ways, and after recent events i have little respect for Victor and his 'i don't care' attitude when asked for simple clarfication.

EDIT: I can easily see why Victor would get annoyed, we all get angry at times and frustrated with things. Moderating this forum probably takes up a lot of his time and others time, i feel i was unfairly treated because of his frustration over the phlos thing. So i am sorry if i offended the person who posted that video, but i will always stand up for my right to give my opinion.