"1.5 I shall not post screenshots of so called vob-mods; modifications to the shape of any car in LFS."

Let's dicusss. I've recently posted a - near harmless - picture showing a VOB mod, so I've had this question in my mind since then.

Since it has never been clarified in the rules, I'm eager to know more about these limitations. So let's grab some attention and hopefully not turn this into a messy to-be-locked post. Laws are meant to be debated over, and so should be rules, right?

Here are my questions:

Is it because VOB mods can cause various sorts of weird crashes on multiplayer (Some seem not to as they solely add parts that are only taken into account for cosmetic damage. These mods - from experience on drift servers mostly - don't have modifications that affect crashing collisions)?
If VOB mods could be tested on the website (or via third-party) and approved/refused depending on their "crashability" and then checked in-game (server check) in order to assure only approved VOB mods are used; could approved material be a substitute to (slight) car customization in game without modifying the handling of the vehicles? I understand that would go against the route that the developers have taken so far (simulation - a car should look like what it does), but even then, this would only be a niche option and, furthermore, cosmetic customization is already well-supported through the current skin system and through overall texture customization for pretty much anything in the game; so it would be far from devoid of sense.

Or Is it because VOB mods can completely overhaul the car's appearance and as such get unlicensed content into the game (in which case VOB mods that keep the car's original body are harmless), which (I only suppose) can put the developers in a dire situation regarding copyright?

Spoiler - click to reveal

A VOB-verification system could prevent that aswell

Lastly, I've seen that the anti-VOB rule is very rarely enforced when it comes to VOB mods that basically keep the car near-stock and add a few details in order to enhance its looks to the user's taste. As such, is that rule applied only when the spirit (the deeper goal) of the rule is violated: for VOB mods that completely changes the car and as such are not only insulting to the developers' work but are also disruptive to the logic of the car list in-game)?

All in all, it feels like the rule is quite detrimental to LFS as it limits its community and only emphasizes a climate of strictness which tends to make people flee - especially newcomers (oh and before someone says we don't need the young, it's obvious that economically-speaking it's a stupid statement).

I found the rule quite vague, so I thought it'd be interesting to ask for clarification.

I agree 99%

Nothing against using VOB mods, it's just that they CAN cause a hassle and most people would rather devs working on new graphics/track rather than something like mod support.

Quote from asyed :

Nothing against using VOB mods, it's just that they CAN cause a hassle and most people would rather devs working on new graphics/track rather than something like mod support.

Yeah. That.
Besides, all the mods I've seen really wasn't very impressive. More like different car bodies on the same modeled chassis.

Just a few Vob mods looks decent, except how is looks is waste of time using it. From my experience mods never feels like original Vob file, very mods in some points( in steering wheel) they feels with a extra dead zone, heavy, etc... I assume people cant feel it because they use a Drift set "without suspension", they doesnt feeling the car , so are used a massive ffb on steering wheel to "fix this issue". Others made soft set when using Vob mods and when they return to original Vob feels weird or they cant using soft sets from others because they using mods calling sh*t sets... I really like how looks some mods, but i cant use it, i keep with original Vob by this reason. I want cars from devs, not from users.

VOB mods don't alter the car physics at all, some mods even preserve the original collision boxes. So, I have to disagree with that.

By allowing something there will almost always have consequences. Most may work fine, but you will always have a small percentage causing hitbox problems or multiplayer conflict.

Most of the VOB modders who have been found out use really fancy mods that alter car characteristic and the body. Seldom do we see little VOB mods - when people mod, they go big.

So to reducd the chance of issues its just better to kerb it completely.

Then theres also the clear issue of copyright infringement and ownership - the devs definitely want this to purely be their work and theirs only, and modding the game will just deter further progress because; why should they continue to develop a "made in free time" game when people are already doing their own to mske the game better?

Licensing is one thing, but another you fail to mention is just that the Devs don't want people to buy the lowest license and then just enhance that version instead of upgrading to S1 or S3. It's business and makes total sense. VOB mods will still exist but not be in direct view of potential new customers.

It seems that many of you missed the point of the post. He does agree with you all that VOB mods that change the hitbox are not good for the community. He specifically said that it would be good to have a hitbox-check software or website where it could check and approve/disapprove mods. With that you wouldn't have the problem of weird collisions because of VOB mods.

I do agree that it's not a priority at all now. I don't think it's a good time to bring this up, Scawen needs to finish with the graphical update and hopefully with the tyre physics as well. After that and after getting the highest priority plans from the "to do" list it would be a good idea to have a discussion about this. Right now it's quite pointless I think.

In the end I do agree with TwinySkyline's idea about the website check. It would let people use their imagination and what's the problem if they have a car that THEY like without affecting anyone else? It's not like they force their car to be rendered on your screen. Saying that VOB modded cars are shit is a very stupid argument. They might be shit to you but who are you to judge other people's taste?

Some of you missed the point of the post..

Quote from ACCAkut :

the Devs don't want people to buy the lowest license and then just enhance that version instead of upgrading to S1 or S3

Sorry but this doesn't make any sense, what lowest licence you are talking about (And you mention them upgrading to s1 or s3)? Also what kind enhancements? Currently demo players can mod XRG with tweaks to fit XRT, XRR etc and it seems like nobody cares about you if using tweaks, but if you use vob on the other hand..

Quote from Abone :

Just a few Vob mods looks decent, except how is looks is waste of time using it. From my experience mods never feels like original Vob file, I want cars from devs, not from users.

If you don't like something doesn't mean nobody likes it , from my experience vob mods change only looks of the car, specs of the car doesnt change a single number (Used a wheel, mouse to test it), also You want cars from devs? Don't install Vob mods / texture mods / anything then. Keep the game stock

Quote from Abone :

Just a few Vob mods looks decent, except how is looks is waste of time using it. From my experience mods never feels like original Vob file, very mods in some points( in steering wheel) they feels with a extra dead zone, heavy, etc... I assume people cant feel it because they use a Drift set "without suspension", they doesnt feeling the car , so are used a massive ffb on steering wheel to "fix this issue". Others made soft set when using Vob mods and when they return to original Vob feels weird or they cant using soft sets from others because they using mods calling sh*t sets... I really like how looks some mods, but i cant use it, i keep with original Vob by this reason. I want cars from devs, not from users.

Yeah, I have to agree that the vast majority of VOBs are shit IMO, to be honest. Which is why I've mostly used one (pictured) for pretty much all of the times I've actively used a VOB mod. Never said I was one to completely overhaul the shape of the car. That would be sacrilegious and ruin my immersion, haha.

Regarding the different feeling for different VOBs, can anyone attest for him? I use 3 LFS instances: one for pictures, one for playing with VOB and one without the VOB (mostly for racing and servers such as TC Driving). I have never ever noticed a difference between the three in terms of maneuverability, so I'm quite surprised to read that; that said I use keyboard (stabilized, so I sort of get some virtual force feedback while steering [unlike mouse and keyboard unstabilized]). Maybe you're mistaking the tweaks (that some VOB mod packages often include) for the VOB itself. From experience and from what I understand VOBs only modify the appearance of the car.

Quote from asyed :

Nothing against using VOB mods, it's just that they CAN cause a hassle and most people would rather devs working on new graphics/track rather than something like mod support.

Quote from Sobis :

I do agree that it's not a priority at all now. I don't think it's a good time to bring this up, Scawen needs to finish with the graphical update and hopefully with the tyre physics as well. After that and after getting the highest priority plans from the "to do" list it would be a good idea to have a discussion about this. Right now it's quite pointless I think.

I know. I only brought that up because (I randomly thought of it and) it seemed that people were scared to do it even though I've encounter similar opinions to mine throughout the years. I was merely speculating as to how to address the issue if it's ever to be addressed.
My real question here is why exactly this is a rule, implying I'd like a developer answer (which might never come, haha).

Quote from ACCAkut :

Licensing is one thing, but another you fail to mention is just that the Devs don't want people to buy the lowest license and then just enhance that version instead of upgrading to S1 or S3. It's business and makes total sense. VOB mods will still exist but not be in direct view of potential new customers.

As Neon said, you're off-topic. Rule 1.5 prohibits the showing of VOB mods on the forum. Not VOB mods themselves. Tweaks, skins and VOB modding are already there. They're implicitely allowed since there's currently no rules (nor ways to enforce those) for that*. The only harm there is is that potential customers could realize that they can cheat the system through screenshots on the forum of demo users showing VOB-modded XRGs into XRTs, for instance. In which case, again, the rule would need to be more specific. That's without mentionning the fact that this is basically piracy of a small portion of the game and showing of it; so pretty much an instant ban.

*Forum Rule 1.4 [...]Any mods which change the shape of a car model, or which allow online cheating or circumvent HLVC, will be rejected.[...]
That's the issue. They're not forbidden, they're rejected if they were to apply on the forum. Wording is of extreme importance when defining rules. Which is one of the reasons I'm calling for a reform of those.

Spoiler - click to reveal

NB: Please correct the grammar mistakes in the goddam rules, haha

Quote from MicroSpecV :

So to reduce the chance of issues its just better to kerb it completely.

Extremism is never beneficial, no matter the subject. In this case, you would only create a larger pool of potential offenses to the rules by giving it a tentacular tendency. Add to that the fact that it limits what is compromised in the rule's permissions even if it isn't fundamentally wrong from a judicial standpoint. E.G., a VOB mod that adds a rollcage, bucket seats and swaps out the steering wheel while retaining everything else. Sounds more like basic visual customization than blasphemy to me.

My point here is to itemize the rules and potentially allow minor modifications while very strictly forbidding abusive modification. While one would tend to think this would only give a first line for people to cross in order to climb up the stairs into the realm of the forbidden; the - historically statistically proven - truth is that by giving people a certain amount of freedom while limiting it in a fair manner, they tend to understand better what rights they have and acknowledge the why and how of the rules that they obey. Afterall, doesn't your freedom stops where other's starts? That's why you accept not to run naked in the street even if it's your kink, because it's also other people's right not to have to see you running around naked in the street. As such, it's my right to customize a product that I have bought for personnal use. However, it also is the developer's right to monopolize the fixing of rules on a website, and as such they can forbid the showing of a modified copy of their game if they so desire.
But the catch is, as I've stated before, as a customer and member of the community, I am part of those that make Live For Speed alive. The rules are designed for people like me. So it's only natural that I have my say on it. That's what I meant when talking about strictness; which "completely kerbing" would only exacerbate.

Just for comparison here are screenshots of mods and original file.
Note 1 - This mod allows you to change Windows texture, steering wheel texture etc
Note 2 - Ignore slight diffrences between pictures, its my fault.
#1 Interior
#2 Rear
#3 Side

Again, if I am to support on-forum any VOB modding it would be the one that stays true to the original work of the developers, that doesn't infringe copyright and doesn't create hitbox issues. That's basically what this thread is about.

Quote from Big Daddy :

On the other hand when you do an image search, you find many pics with mods... (and the cars look cool..) So I don ´t understand the point to accept VOB mods in offical LFS forum.

In which case the "cool" factor of customization could become an official selling point and attract new players. Just like skinning is one of the keys to the drifting community (for the best and the worst) and helps keeping it alive.

Quote from Sobis :

It seems that many of you missed the point of the post. He does agree with you all that VOB mods that change the hitbox are not good for the community. He specifically said that it would be good to have a hitbox-check software or website where it could check and approve/disapprove mods. With that you wouldn't have the problem of weird collisions because of VOB mods.

I do agree that it's not a priority at all now. I don't think it's a good time to bring this up, Scawen needs to finish with the graphical update and hopefully with the tyre physics as well. After that and after getting the highest priority plans from the "to do" list it would be a good idea to have a discussion about this. Right now it's quite pointless I think.

In the end I do agree with TwinySkyline's idea about the website check. It would let people use their imagination and what's the problem if they have a car that THEY like without affecting anyone else? It's not like they force their car to be rendered on your screen. Saying that VOB modded cars are shit is a very stupid argument. They might be shit to you but who are you to judge other people's taste?

I just got through updating an RTS game called O AD. It's free and open source. One of the things they did with the latest update was have this MOD download section in the game settings. The mods were submitted,
verified for the most part and you could download these mods in game.
After LFS is completed, I wouldn't mind seeing something like that developed for modders.
You could have the mods pre-certified (?) for compatibility and you could download these mods about the same way as you click which server to use.
Now I dunno if that would be practical with those mods where the modders basically redid the whole game.
The website idea would be perfect for those.
But I agree with you, this whole modding mess shouldn't be a development priority at this moment. Or really to us fan-boys either for that matter. Even though I want flaming trash cans instead of tires and 1950's lead sleds, I can wait til the game is finished. Yeah. 1950's lead sleds. Most of the models are from car companies long gone so there shouldn't be any legal issues and they look cool - just drive badly.

https://youtu.be/sdSyDmz_z5E

Quote from neonmateo :

Just for comparison here are screenshots of mods and original file.
Note 1 - This mod allows you to change Windows texture, steering wheel texture etc
Note 2 - Ignore slight diffrences between pictures, its my fault.
#1 Interior
#2 Rear
#3 Side

Opening those links here just show a white screen

Quote from neonmateo :

you missing rest of my comment.... Because someone love mods doesn't mean works right... "I really like how looks some mods, but i cant use it, i keep with original Vob by this reason" hard to understand? i dont need your advice , i do everything by my self. btw i do a textures pack , check ben conrad on YT, maybe you are using lololol

Quote from TwinySkyline :

In a race way you cant feel diferences, only in drift because we use all steeringwheel rotation. i can say XRG mod in XRT feels more heavy, old XRT mod with XRR wing feels more heavy also (only sets can change that feeling).i dont use tweaks and i do my own sets. Doesnt feel the same, so i dont use. I just show my prespective , i also love nice looking cars.

Twinky you're missing the point.

"Official" modding (not just VOB) in any game isn't easily available and is not easy to get licencing for just purely because of the mass of possibilities one has. Thats why games like rF, F1 (Codies), and many others that enable track, car or modelling are non official and are done at own risk.

BeamNG seems to have done it but then again they must have some damn good rules for developers and modders to prevent licencing issues or copyrighted material reaching the next build.

What LFS is and has been doing is like every other game - completely disregarding and disallowing modding, and having concequences for it (i.e getting banned online, account revoked (c Vanos) and so on).
Yes, people will still do it, and plenty do many great things. But notice they all run their mods offline or in cracked and tweaked servers and whenever they come online to a normal server... they can't. At least with VOB mods. And if they can, some admin or someone will boot them away.

So we end up siphoning out the runts and have a clean community base. Those who mod can have their own private offline base. But never in the near future do I see modding capability as an official in game allowed thingy. Far too many legal stuff to go through and then you'll end up having the mod base better than the game itself. And at that point Scawen will probably end the development since the game would already be modded to obvilion.

So no. In short.
Modding can be great but the dangers and risks far outweigh the possibilities. Also noting the fact that black sheep tarnish the reputation of "good intented" modders (by bringing mods and tweaks online, crashing others, having negative influencesp and we can't really view it positively anymore.

Quote from MicroSpecV :

Twinky you're missing the point.

"Official" modding (not just VOB) in any game isn't easily available and is not easy to get licencing for just purely because of the mass of possibilities one has. Thats why games like rF, F1 (Codies), and many others that enable track, car or modelling are non official and are done at own risk.

BeamNG seems to have done it but then again they must have some damn good rules for developers and modders to prevent licencing issues or copyrighted material reaching the next build.

What LFS is and has been doing is like every other game - completely disregarding and disallowing modding, and having concequences for it (i.e getting banned online, account revoked (c Vanos) and so on).
Yes, people will still do it, and plenty do many great things. But notice they all run their mods offline or in cracked and tweaked servers and whenever they come online to a normal server... they can't. At least with VOB mods. And if they can, some admin or someone will boot them away.

So we end up siphoning out the runts and have a clean community base. Those who mod can have their own private offline base. But never in the near future do I see modding capability as an official in game allowed thingy. Far too many legal stuff to go through and then you'll end up having the mod base better than the game itself. And at that point Scawen will probably end the development since the game would already be modded to obvilion.

So no. In short.
Modding can be great but the dangers and risks far outweigh the possibilities. Also noting the fact that black sheep tarnish the reputation of "good intented" modders (by bringing mods and tweaks online, crashing others, having negative influencesp and we can't really view it positively anymore.

Deaf conversation with you it seems. I haven't missed your point. I understand how modding could be a cause of harm to LFS if poorly handled, which it would most likely be if it was applied the way you're suggesting. You have missed my point. I merely mentioned mod support to examplify and help others understand why I'm asking that question while putting it into context; but the real debate here - that you clearly have went over without actively understanding - is regarding the rules themselves. In fact, let me quote myself for you to read it:

Quote from TwinySkyline :

Again, if I am to support on-forum any VOB modding it would be the one that stays true to the original work of the developers, that doesn't infringe copyright and doesn't create hitbox issues. That's basically what this thread is about.

Quote from TwinySkyline :

Lastly, I've seen that the anti-VOB rule is very rarely enforced when it comes to VOB mods that basically keep the car near-stock and add a few details in order to enhance its looks to the user's taste. As such, is that rule applied only when the spirit (the deeper goal) of the rule is violated: for VOB mods that completely changes the car and as such are not only insulting to the developers' work but are also disruptive to the logic of the car list in-game)?

By the way, in-game policies to counter VOB modding already work that way, intended or not. You can use those slightly modified VOBs that retain their original hitboxes just fine but you can't use the heavy stuff, as shown by the incredible amount of auto-bans on demo servers since this is where you're most likely to see people "go big"*. And this is just another reason to clarify the rules.

*On the subject of "going big": as a part of the licensed drifting community, I can tell you that the vast majority of VOB modders use VOB mods that do exactly what I'm defending. Minor modifications. In-game and on the forums, we're still talking about XRTs that look like XRTs. In-game only, we're talking about XRTs that behave like XRTs and have the collision of XRTs. Keep in mind this thread isn't even about mod support or VOB modding online to begin with. It's about the forum rules.

I see some of you are taking this on dramatic scales. I'm not saying "oh yeah and make it so that VOB modding data bases are officially linked to the website! Replacing the UF1 with a Ferrari VOB mod is great!". We're just speculating here. As exposed early on, what I'm actually rooting for is an answer from the rulers themselves, if possible. I just found it interesting to discuss it aswell.

Quote from Abone :

In a race way you cant feel diferences, only in drift because we use all steeringwheel rotation. i can say XRG mod in XRT feels more heavy, old XRT mod with XRR wing feels more heavy also (only sets can change that feeling).i dont use tweaks and i do my own sets. Doesnt feel the same, so i dont use. I just show my prespective , i also love nice looking cars.

Again, while this isn't quite on-topic, I'm quite curious to your statement. I've never noticed any change of sorts in handling from vanilla VOB to modified VOB. By steering wheel rotation, what do you mean exactly? You were talking about force feedback earlier on, but that has nothing to do with your VOB, that's just a separate part of the game. If by steering wheel rotation you mean the amount of lock angle your front steering wheels can have, the same thing applies, lock can be modified through tweaks but not through VOB modding. Or maybe you're talking about slight differences in visual lock (for some reason?), but not factual lock, which then slightly makes you feel that what you're doing is different but it's only what you're looking at which is different? This can happen with skins too if you use 3d person, some kits try to imitate larger wheel arches, thus makes it look like you've got more wheel angle, but in fact, you don't.

I just don't get how the car would behave any differently from VOB to another.

Quote from TwinySkyline :

By steering wheel rotation, what do you mean exactly?

Check printscreen

Quote from TwinySkyline :

You were talking about force feedback earlier on, but that has nothing to do with your VOB,

I driving with a steering wheel (real) and when i use mods i mentioned, my steering wheel feels more heavy. You are confused with a visual thing, im talk about fisic sensation. that happening without change game settings or setup settings. I hope you understand me now.

Quote from TwinySkyline :

Again, while this isn't quite on-topic, I'm quite curious to your statement. I've never noticed any change of sorts in handling from vanilla VOB to modified VOB. By steering wheel rotation, what do you mean exactly? You were talking about force feedback earlier on, but that has nothing to do with your VOB, that's just a separate part of the game. If by steering wheel rotation you mean the amount of lock angle your front steering wheels can have, the same thing applies, lock can be modified through tweaks but not through VOB modding. Or maybe you're talking about slight differences in visual lock (for some reason?), but not factual lock, which then slightly makes you feel that what you're doing is different but it's only what you're looking at which is different? This can happen with skins too if you use 3d person, some kits try to imitate larger wheel arches, thus makes it look like you've got more wheel angle, but in fact, you don't.

I just don't get how the car would behave any differently from VOB to another.

He's talking about tweaking, not vob mods.

Quote from pärtan :

He's talking about tweaking, not vob mods.

Im talking about steering wheel sensation, Original Vob VS Vob mod . Im talking easy....looks like no ones understand what i mean.

It can't change your steering wheel feel as its just a model with no physics attached.

Quote from Abone :

Check printscreen
I driving with a steering wheel (real) and when i use mods i mentioned, my steering wheel feels more heavy. You are confused with a visual thing, im talk about fisic sensation. that happening without change game settings or setup settings. I hope you understand me now.

What do you mean? In racing you may use less steering input, but the G-forces generated in higher speed scenarios are more than in drifting. Technically you feel a lot more of the car in racing. It isnt dependent on the steering wheel input. But I understand what you mean, and I suspect it is because the aero model may be calculated from the .vob model itself.

Quote from ozo :

It can't change your steering wheel feel as its just a model with no physics attached.

It does, either it's placebo or the aero model actually changes with different .vob. I admit I have used those mods when magnot released his AE86s, and it felt more sharp in turns. I may run some testing to confirm this, as it's been several years from this though, so I can't really remember clearly.


Also, part of the reasons why car mods aren't allowed, is because if you crash your car online with a modded .vob, the people who have a default car see a proper mess, like this: https://www.lfs.net/attachment/75905

Maybe, one day, if we get proper car modding in LFS (as in, adding new cars, with their own performance values and everything), I'll actually use them. VOB mods are unreliable, buggy messes, especially the ones made to work online, and most of them are not very good to begin with. Not to mention they invalidate one of the greatest things about LFS: Custom Skins. I love custom skins too much to ruin them with a (most likely ugly) VOB mod.