Hi everybody,

LFS is a online game, we all know that. But sometimes it´s not possible to find good competition at the time you want to play, many online games (gamers) just focus on crashing on purpose.

So, it would be great if the Ai drivers in LFS would behave more like real drivers, be more human ;-)

So, what are your comments on the new possibility to set a different skill level for each AI driver? In what way have you made use of this?

In my mind it doesn´t really make the game against AI:s any better, the gap between the skill levels is just too big, the "train" will stretch around the whole track if you drive several laps.
If you mix all levels, the race gets messy, a lot of crashes etc. The AI:s aren´t good at passing, a Pro level almost can´t pass a beginner level AI.

Love to hear your comments,

Meseplayer

Scawen has already said that he worked on the AI during the tyre physics update (which still isn't finished) and that the improved AI will appear in the game once tyre and graphical update will be ready for testing.

Hi

Had a look at the tread, it seems people think the AI:s are too slow. That's not the problem I think, it's more that they are the same, they lap same times lap after lap, no tire wear whatsoever, no damages etc. That is a bigger issue if you would like to have a "real" race. I think the command code to change AI:s skills during race, maybe with a random script or even from a button on the steering wheel could produce a competitive long race with AI:s. They should be able to "make mistakes" not drive like robots...

Meseplayer

Correct me if I'm wrong but their tyres do wear.

Hi

Well, wear is not the right word,the heat up a bit ;-)
I made a testrun with AI ok skill level on Kyoto GP long reversed, a really tire wearing fast track. I run the AI alone on the track for 10 laps, the laptimes were inside 0.10 seconds, total time over 33 minutes, see the attached file for tire wear at the end of the run...

Meseplayer

Well, the tyres do indeed wear and the AI experiences damage. If you let the AI drive over a longer distance you will see them suffer from flat spots and punctures.

EDIT: looking at the picture you posted, the car you chose to monitor seems the be road car. The road tires in LFS last very long. E.g. in an endurance race at AS7 I took part in where XRGs were available, they could do stints of 2h30min to 2h45min with one set of tyres. I'm not sure if they had to pit for tyres or if it was because of the fuel. So it might take a long while until you really see the tyre wear.

Ok, thanks man, I haven´t done that long AI races actually, just maybe 5-10 laps, usually I wear out my tires and laptimes drop ;-( It sure was a road car, the FXO TURBO with a softer setup, intake restriction and added mass for smoother racing ;-) With the default setup and PRO skill for AI it gets even worse, it´s hard to start from last position and win a 10 lap race on that track, almost impossible. Looking on the tube i found a great link where a guy is beating the AI:s, he´s quite good actually, driving with clutch and gearstick.

Here´s the links,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZS26SH7ewo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8gobOU-X-U

Meseplayer

To me that sounds like tires are overheating instead of wearing out Mese.
Have you checked out your tire temps while driving?

Jess, you are right ofcourse, but the result is the same, if you start "cooling down" the tires you lose the race, the AI:s drive so "perfectly" that their tires don´t heat up or wear down.

Mese

AI drivers need both some randomification and physiology. Optimal brake points, steering angles, pedal actuation etc. are being calculated and AI tries to meet those values as closely as possible.

But there should be a randomised range of error, where each AI goes for slightly different values each lap. Maybe even add some meta randomness, so AI1 is particularly bad at finding brake points, while AI2 tends to be too eager on the throttle.

AI should also not be able to turn the steering wheel 360° in 5 milliseconds. So there need to be some physiological limits in place (this applies to mouse/keyboard steering as well).

Their biggest flaw though, is the lack of flexibility in actual racing with other drivers (AI or not). While they're ahead of another car they'll defend their position and stick to the racing line by any means necessary. But as soon as you get next to them/past them, they will back off so hard, other drivers tend to slam into their backs. There's never any side-by-side action, running wide/forcing narrow, cutting back and so on.


Then again, AI really is the least of my concerns with LFS development. It *is* "The online racing simulator" and even if you lose internet connection for a while, there's hotlapping to do and tweaks to play with. Not to mention other video games or analogue activities.

Hi

That is for sure a big challenge for Scawen, won´t happen tomorrow, but You´r right, the game should have more humanlike AI:s, and as I also mentioned at first, it´s an online game.

Mese

Quote from Meseplayer :

Hi

That is for sure a big challenge for Scawen, won´t happen tomorrow, but You´r right, the game should have more humanlike AI:s, and as I also mentioned at first, it´s an online game.

Mese

Just updated to S2 hoping having some fun with AI today, I didn't know that they are ramming player from the back like they are not aware at all. 100% immersion breaker. I think if it's a full online game, AI race mode and AI drivers should be removed from the game to avoid misconception. For the moment there is a whole page dedicated to AI setting in the UI so AI race is a proud part of the game. At the actual state other than the training mode,I don't really see what value they add to the sim. But as a fairly new to LFS I may be wrong?

Quote from manran :

I think if it's a full online game, AI race mode and AI drivers should be removed from the game to avoid misconception.

There can hardly be any misconception since every single race sim ever made has terrible AI - and this is not so surprising since it is very difficult (perhaps impossible) to make AI act truly like human drivers. For sure AI is something that could be improved, but developers of online race sims don't see this as a high priority. Developers of arcade racing games DO see it as a priority, but even in that case you have AI that use 'rubber-banding' to catch up unrealistically, and their 'realistic' overtaking and blocking moves become very predictable in a short time.

I'm not sure if it is still the case with LFS, but the AI drivers used to get better the more you trained them. It was possible to train some a lot and some not so much to create a greater spread of lap times and skills. It is still possible to use unique setups for the AI which would be another way of creating different performance levels.

As for AI drivers running into you or pushing you off the track, this is not something that has been solved to a satisfying degree by any good sim. I always thought that making the AI keep a bigger distance from any other car would help to solve it, but seemingly it isn't as simple as that or it would have been solved by now. Especially with online play, the fractions of a second where a collision could be avoided by an AI car could be lost simply through latency. We can probably look forward to better AI in the future, but how realistically AI can race may be pie in the sky stuff.

Quote from Gunn :

As for AI drivers running into you or pushing you off the track, this is not something that has been solved to a satisfying degree by any good sim. I always thought that making the AI keep a bigger distance from any other car would help to solve it, but seemingly it isn't as simple as that or it would have been solved by now. Especially with online play, the fractions of a second where a collision could be avoided by an AI car could be lost simply through latency. We can probably look forward to better AI in the future, but how realistically AI can race may be pie in the sky stuff.

Thank you for your valuable input. I know the sim universe a bit and what are the limitations. I play against AI on a daily basis alternatively with AC,ACC,RF2,AMS2,RF2 and defintely don't get rammed in every single session like in LFS. Time on time but not everytime. It's so obvious that I ended up writing here.

Quote from manran :

Thank you for your valuable input. I know the sim universe a bit and what are the limitations. I play against AI on a daily basis alternatively with AC,ACC,RF2,AMS2,RF2 and defintely don't get rammed in every single session like in LFS. Time on time but not everytime. It's so obvious that I ended up writing here.

I'm glad that you understand the truth in my statement. I don't get rammed every time in any sim either, including LFS. They all suffer the same issues to varying degrees and none of them do a good job of AI and probably never will.

iRacing's AI is surprisingly competent at providing a good race.

you did remind me of this... https://youtu.be/-sOuX-xW59s

About LFS AI: yes, it's very minimal, LFS is "The online racing simulator" and written by single programmer, so most of his attention goes toward simulation and network code. LFS AI is like extra bonus thing, not to be taken seriously. You could have some fun with it offline, and they may even show you some basic performance before joining online races, but they are not meant as full feature to make LFS also offline racing game.

Quote from Gunn :

I'm glad that you understand the truth in my statement. I don't get rammed every time in any sim either, including LFS. They all suffer the same issues to varying degrees and none of them do a good job of AI and probably never will.

I wouldn't call AI in any sim 'fantastic', but LFS is quite a long way behind other sims.
AI in AMS2 for example will defend the inside line, run wide and/or back off if you do get up the inside and put your elbows out on corner exit, react to blue flags by coming off the racing line and lifting.

They're not perfect by any means, can be inconsistent and skittish at times, but certainly more racey than LFS current state.