Quote from SamH :

Okay, come back when you have the faintest grasp on the meaning of "democracy", and then - if and when we establish a common understanding that the democratic process is preferable to the authoritarian tyranny you seem to be proposing - we could conceivably have a conversation about how to proceed.

So you're saying that Ukraine should allow itself to be compromised?

Tell me the difference between my example of having a political party that supported al qaeda while the attacks had happened ?

And its suspended the groups legally under martial law

The right to protest is fundamental in democracy.

The right to express opposing views is fundamental in democracy.

The right to have political representation is fundamental in democracy.

Again, when you understand the meaning of democracy, come back. I can re-type it in ALL CAPS if you think it would help.

Quote from bishtop :

And its suspended the groups legally under martial law

"we will defend our democracy by abandoning democracy!"

lol

Quote from SamH :

"we will defend our democracy by abandoning democracy!"

lol

Still haven't answered my question

And are you saying that when you ban political parties it means democracy has been abandoned.

So guess that counts the same for the UK with around 50 banned political parties

And whats with the attitude ? Thought you were someone who discussed like an adult

Quote from bishtop :

Still haven't answered my question

And are you saying that when you ban political parties it means democracy has been abandoned.

So guess that counts the same for the UK with around 50 banned political parties and the USA with

I did answer your question, but because you have no concept of democracy, you're unable to conceive of my reply.

But for the avoidance of doubt, YES! You have abandoned the democratic process when you ban political views from participating in the process.

Quote from SamH :

I did answer your question, but because you have no concept of democracy, you're unable to conceive of my reply.

But for the avoidance of doubt, YES! You have abandoned the democratic process when you ban political views from participating in the process.

So we should allow Neo nazi/fascism and racist parties to have a chance in government ?

Please be an adult and lose the attitude. We're both adults and should show respect to each other

Sorry if somehow i've shown disrespect

Quote from bishtop :

So we should allow Neo nazi and racist parties to have a chance in government ?

I kinda feel like I'm just repeating myself, which is why I said you should go and find out what democracy means before we can proceed.

I don't think any neo nazi or racist party stands any chance at forming a government. But the democratic process REQUIRES that they be permitted to stand.

If you disagree, that's fine. I just think it's important that you dissuade yourself of the notion that you support democracy and the democratic process when you don't at all. It rather seems like you're an anti-democratic supporter of tyrannical systems (much like Russia, for example). Sorry if this comes as bad news, mate.

Quote from SamH :

It rather seems like you're an anti-democratic supporter of tyrannical systems (much like Russia, for example). Sorry if this comes as bad news, mate.

Or like the UK for example, who has also banned 50 political parties.

Quote from bishtop :

Or like the UK for example, who has also banned 50 political parties.

If you can find anywhere where I suggested for one moment that I supported Britain's ban of ANY political parties, now would be a really good time to point that out.

Quote from SamH :

If you can find anywhere where I suggested for one moment that I supported Britain's ban of ANY political parties, now would be a really good time to point that out.

I never said you did ? would you say we live in a democratic country then ?

Even more , this is not even important while the country is being destroyed by Putin. More concerning is the slaughter of civillians and the attack on a countrys sovereignty

Ahh wait, nope I'm not arguing that Britain is a beacon of democracy. I wouldn't ever claim that. It's not. Far from it.

It's supposed to be, and a lot of people (like yourself) falsely believe that it is, but it's not. But with that said, it's better than many.

I'm really not one to entertain this "whataboutery", though. Britain doesn't need to be without fault for me to point out the abject failures of other nations. The point is that I support the democratic process, and I oppose breaches and failures of the process, both home and abroad.

Quote from SamH :

Ahh wait, nope I'm not arguing that Britain is a beacon of democracy. I wouldn't ever claim that. It's not. Far from it.

It's supposed to be, and a lot of people (like yourself) falsely believe that it is, but it's not. But with that said, it's better than many.

I'm really not one to entertain this "whataboutery", though. Britain doesn't need to be without fault for me to point out the abject failures of other nations. The point is that I support the democratic process, and I oppose breaches and failures of the process, both home and abroad.

The point i was trying to get across ( i admit, not very clearly) is that parties can be banned(whether right or wrongfully), but still have something resembling democracy and be nothing like what Russia has had to endure.

Quote from bishtop :

The point i was trying to get across ( i admit, not very clearly) is that parties can be banned(whether right or wrongfully), but still have something resembling democracy and be nothing like what Russia has had to endure.

And - as an advocate for democracy - I wholeheartedly and unequivocally disagree.

[edit] Well not wholeheartedly. But my point is that the democratic process is what it is, and banning any political party for any reason, when its weight can be judged fairly at the ballot box, is fundamentally and unequivocally anti-democratic.

Quote from SamH :

And - as an advocate for democracy - I wholeheartedly and unequivocally disagree.

But we the UK have something resembling democracy, or at least its not like in Russia.

dictatorship tyranny inequality unfairness is the opposite of democracy , both the UK and Ukraine don't have the first two, the latter 2 i think most have.

Il admit i probably have a biased view, after knowing and watching what Ukraine is going through and admiring zelensky for having the balls to stay. I just don't think that Putin should have any chance of sneaking his way into taking Ukraine

Even in democracy human rights have to be protected, the same as in freedom of speech

Quote from bishtop :

dictatorship tyranny inequality unfairness is the opposite of democracy , both the UK and Ukraine don't have the first two, the latter 2 i think most have

I agree that unfairness and inequality are challenges in every society, and I do think they're good metrics by which to judge a society.

But banning political parties from presenting at the ballot box is entirely the first two. ANY move in that direction is the WRONG direction.

I forget who, now (Alexandr, I think?) made the point earlier in this very thread, that free speech as a core human right is not in place to defend words you like, it is to defend words you DON'T like. This is such an important and well-made point.

Quote from SamH :

I agree that unfairness and inequality are challenges in every society, and I do think they're good metrics by which to judge a society.

But banning political parties from presenting at the ballot box is entirely the first two. ANY move in that direction is the WRONG direction.

I forget who, now (Alexandr, I think?) made the point earlier in this very thread, that free speech as a core human right is not in place to defend words you like, it is to defend words you DON'T like. This is such an important and well-made point.

I guess that by me saying that it was right for him to ban the parties was wrong of me to say, but i do think that with the current situation its necassary for the moment. The parties he banned are ran by close friends/allies of Mr Putin

I like Alexandr , he's a very wise and trueful speaking person

apologies if i had come across as argumentive and like i wasn't listening to what you had to say , it just took me about 10 post to untangle my thoughts on it

Quote from bishtop :

I guess that by me saying that it was right for him to ban the parties was wrong, but i do think that with the current situation its necassary. The parties he banned are ran by close friends/allies of Mr Putin

I do appreciate that it may seem expedient in a time of war, but these parties earned their places in parliament through an open and fair election process - something that Ukraine fought for, and won. They have earned the right to express their support/opposition and they must be heard, even if we disagree with them. We also have that right, because nobody's free speech is above criticism. The way to defeat bad ideas is with good or better ideas - ideas that the majority of people can agree on. That's democracy.

Quote from bishtop :

apologies if i had come across as argumentive and like i wasn't listening to what you had to say , it just took me about 10 post to untangle my thoughts on it

Likewise! I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, but I'm not used to sharing them these days! If I've offended, I apologise!

Quote from SamH :

Likewise! I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, but I'm not used to sharing them these days! If I've offended, I apologise!

No need to apologise, you sound very passionate about what you speak, and after some thought, i know you're right about what democracy entails, i let my emotions cloud my judgement with the situation in Ukraine, i do tend to get defensive over it all, after all id suprised if our prime minister would still be in london if we were to be attacked in the same way, i admire zelensky considering he started as a comedian(even though our own politicians are comical at times), plus all the destruction and death of Ukrainian people

Respect

Propaganda bait.

Democracy.....
https://youtu.be/ZZYDYomO4D4
For my two british friends who have made the last many comments.

How can democracy work ?
https://youtu.be/GjmWElO9W0Q

Please feel free to discuss, as we, on this forum, (clearly others on alternative forums and alternative conversations, are focused on different outcomes, and agendas,) We (hopefully) all choose to want to end these pointless colonial wars from the many nations who are focused on controlling all resources, please comment on what your nations agendas may well be....
Then comment on how that affects the Ukranian (Iraqi, Syrian, Afghani, Libian, Yemeni, (insert nation here)) peoples desire for peace, (clue, if you're country is a major seller of arms, then I'm dubious about you're desire for world peace...)

Personally, cool to see no one has questioned my previous post.
(Or, if they did, I didn't get banned, yet again... )

Ahh! I have come to love Russell Brand of late. I was quite angry with him over "Manuelgate", but that's a long time ago and I think he's broadly redeemed himself since then (and I think a path to redemption is essential, which is why I oppose "cancel culture").

I don't think I align with him politically (yet, but he may come around! ) but I think he's embarked on a wonderful journey of discovery. I don't think he's said as much but it seems to me that Brand is a fallibilist (https://iep.utm.edu/fallibil/). I appreciate that about him. Hold strong opinions, but lightly - be willing to quickly let go of them if they turn out to be wrong.

Regarding the 2nd video, I'm watching now. I don't really know enough about anarchism (like most anarchists I know) except where it intersects with libertarian philosophies, and I'm certainly not a libertarian.

WRT arms sales I think it's essential to distinguish between a private company which manufactures weapons, a government which licences the company, the civil servants who benefit from cronyism, and the citizenry who neither have any say nor reap any benefit (and typically have scant knowledge of the sale). None of it is excusable or justifiable, IMHO. Being solutions-focused, I have no idea where to start.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Democracy.....
https://youtu.be/ZZYDYomO4D4
For my two british friends who have made the last many comments.

How can democracy work ?
https://youtu.be/GjmWElO9W0Q

Please feel free to discuss, as we, on this forum, (clearly others on alternative forums and alternative conversations, are focused on different outcomes, and agendas,) We (hopefully) all choose to want to end these pointless colonial wars from the many nations who are focused on controlling all resources, please comment on what your nations agendas may well be....
Then comment on how that affects the Ukranian (Iraqi, Syrian, Afghani, Libian, Yemeni, (insert nation here)) peoples desire for peace, (clue, if you're country is a major seller of arms, then I'm dubious about you're desire for world peace...)

Personally, cool to see no one has questioned my previous post.
(Or, if they did, I didn't get banned, yet again... )

Theres a lot that i don't agree with Russell Brand about, BUT he does speak a some sense sometimes regarding regarding democracy in principle. As myself and samH spoke about earlier on, to not have democracy would be to have dictatorship tyranny inequality unfairness, i would say that most democratic countries don't have the first 2, but the latter two we have the world over, even though people try to make us believe we don't.

From what i have learnt, the leaders of the parties banned are close friends to putin and/or Russian oligarchs, so i can understand him banning them on that basis, but i supposed it's a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation as it could be taken as anti democratic

Quote from SamH :

Ahh! I have come to love Russell Brand of late.

Same as myself, Theres a lot i don't agree with him about, but inside all of the stuff i don't agree with, theres snippets of stuff that i think he gets spot on. He seems to be passionate about what he speaks about.

It should be an ongoing story for all of us, we all come from different places but hopefully we can all agree on certain points and then build from those points to change the current political reality and, together, globally, influence and change those around us to understand that there can be alternative global choices.
"From tiny acorns mighty oak trees grow."

Quote from Racer X NZ :

It should be an ongoing story for all of us, we all come from different places but hopefully we can all agree on certain points and then build from those points to change the current political reality and, together, globally, influence and change those around us to understand that there can be alternative global choices.
"From tiny acorns mighty oak trees grow."

To get a good and fair political system, i think we need people that come from the same life as the majority, not people that have lived a sheltered life away from the everyday problems the many.

Look at how people from all over the world get along so well on LFS or other online platforms apart from a few that most likely troll , we may disagree on subjects, but we don't breed hate or resentment from it, yet politically those in power seem to always want to disagree and not shift on the issues at hand. War should never be an option

We are supposed to evolve as the human race, and we should know better than to think war solves anything, the only thing it does produce is hate and resentment and suffering

The best thing that i love about liveforspeed, is getting to know and talk to people from all over the world, its shown me that no matter where we come from, we the people are all the same and want the same peace