Quote from tristancliffe :

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy.

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

For the 1. point, +1. And own pitboxes
2. The current system is ok for hotlappers, but the problem is that HL sessions start with cold tires. Maybe the race cars could have preheated tyres like they do in real life (mostly). But coding over 700 different starting points is too much work, starting from the beginning of the last sector works well, imho. User configurable starting points don't really sound something that would be easily doable either. Whatabout the user gets to select whether he wants to start the HL sessions from the beginning of the second or third sector, or from pits?

Quote from Hyperactive :

For the 1. point, +1. And own pitboxes
2. The current system is ok for hotlappers, but the problem is that HL sessions start with cold tires. Maybe the race cars could have preheated tyres like they do in real life (mostly). But coding over 700 different starting points is too much work, starting from the beginning of the last sector works well, imho. User configurable starting points don't really sound something that would be easily doable either. Whatabout the user gets to select whether he wants to start the HL sessions from the beginning of the second or third sector, or from pits?

uhm looks like you did not read post #20 which contains the almost same content? Anyway sounds good

Quote from biggie :

HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself.

nah that could be used for "cheating" (driving on the grass to gain more speed for the next lap / cutting chicanes).

Quote from Scawen :

Just a quick note : As requested, I have made the "next" lap not be HLVC invalidated by reverse driving (in my version). Only the current lap is invalidated. So that stops anyone using the reverse driving cheat but does not stop them driving the wrong way to warm their tyres. It turned out easy to do, so worth doing it for now as we will still be on a compatible version for some time...

but that will work
although, id like to see prewarmed tires as well, and its not really unrealistic too, so why not?

When I start hotlapping my tyres are warm - i.e. only 20 degrees below optimum. As everyone is the same I think it's not too much of a problem. if they started cold, i.e. ambient, then I could understand that complaint.

Quote from tristancliffe :

When I start hotlapping my tyres are warm - i.e. only 20 degrees below optimum. As everyone is the same I think it's not too much of a problem. if they started cold, i.e. ambient, then I could understand that complaint.

because it takes ages to gain those 20 degrees or more to get optimum tire tempratures for the next or the lap after that (oval) on most of the cars and its just a waste of time? Starting with optimum temp (which would cool down a bit so you still have to heat em at some combos is what i think of).

Quote from tristancliffe :

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

I think hotlapping should be equal to everyone in every way. So a NO from me, and a NO to any other player side configuration ability.

Couple of degrees less than optimal tyre temperatures and start at the beginning of the last sector, or in a suitable place to get a decent run to the front straight would do me quite nicely. No need to warm up tyres by driving backwards, and just enough space to warm up the tyres to optimal if wanted

Just thought that I would add that I too disagree with hotlap starting from the pits. However, I too do think that it would be a good idea to starts from the pits for qualifying.

One more thing ... I wish we had manual race starts, where false starting could be possible (and obviously penalised), rather than the current computer controlled start system. Phew..

Quote from Renku :

I think hotlapping should be equal to everyone in every way. So a NO from me, and a NO to any other player side configuration ability.

ok then everybody get the same pc+ a good wheel, lets say G25? then the same monitor, same provider, same socks, same food & beer and thats it. Easy. Lets do it. Seriously, as long as the hotlap itself is not touched by any factor, its ok for me. I dont care if somebody starts from the pits, its your time dude, waste it, be happy and enjoy but to those who want a quick hotlap mode, it should be adjustable to start from the track as usual, with pre-heaten tires at (nearly optimum temp). Did i missed something now? For sure...

Quote from tristancliffe :

When I start hotlapping my tyres are warm - i.e. only 20 degrees below optimum. As everyone is the same I think it's not too much of a problem. if they started cold, i.e. ambient, then I could understand that complaint.

there is clearly the ability to heat them to different levels - if you want to go straight out there and hotlap, why wouldn't you heat them to optimum, or 5 degrees below (to allow for heating over the lap)
I think they should either start dead cold (which would probably require more realism from the temp model) or should be pre-heated to what ever temp you want. This arbitrary heating seems a little odd and unrealistic to me.

I dno if this has been suggested (i've only skimmed over the thread) but i kinda agree with both parties here. I agree that starting from the pits is something irl and works well but i also agree that for the big tracks, no-one wants to damage their car (which can happen) when driving around which can hinder their attempt at a good lap. So why not have an option? When you go and choose your track in hotlapping mode, a selection comes up (like the are you sure you wana exit screen) option for "start from pits" or "LFS start" or something? That way if someone does wana have a rl experience, say around blackwood they can start from the pits, if not, they can start from where LFS starts you know? Just an idea, dont know if this would be hard to impliment but it seems a decent idea to give both parties what they like.

Quote from [RCG]Boosted :

nah that could be used for "cheating" (driving on the grass to gain more speed for the next lap / cutting chicanes).

Nah, you got me wrong there :P My suggestion only applies to driving backwards. Cutting the track should still invalidate the next lap of course (in the last split that is).

Yes, my update only changes it for the reverse driving invalidation.
The other invalidations have not changed in any of these versions.

Quote from RoCkBiGdAvE :

I dno if this has been suggested (i've only skimmed over the thread)

Yes that has been suggested and you really should read the thread. Or we will end up with dozens of duplicate posts with everyone thinking they are quite likely to be the first one to have that idea.

That's why reading the thread is a special rule of this forum, and is also a general rule or forum etiquette in ALL forums.

yes, duplicate posts are a waste of time (right Hyper? ). Which brings me to my point. See what is hotlapping? Saving time whenever and wherever you can. I mean sure you can chill and do some hotlaps for fun but thats another thing. If youre succuessful this way. respect but i think most of the drivers just want a quick hotlap without any tire heating procedures. Tires are the most important factor in LFS to get a good time, beside skills and driving technique(s) and so on. I kind of have some splitted thoughts on that.

There are hotlappers that enjoys the driving itselfs and the hole hotlap thing, they maybe improve less then everyone else because they have alot of time to spend.

And, on the other side there are people that only looking foward, as i said above, for the single hotlap. To get there as fast as possible without any damage and with nearly optimal tire temperatures (for the hole lap, which also means the tires are mostly a bit or more above optimum at some combos at the beginning of the hotlap) is the second goal of that and not very easy at some combos.

So finally a hotlap mode that somehow fits for everybody is the idea i have and what i can see from other peoples postings as well.
I really like to spin at the oval sometimes to get the tires hot but that can be also very annoying and most of the time the reason i leave the hotlap mode. At curcuit tracks, its more diffecult to heat the tires and those who can do it or simple had a lucky run, are in the advantage without having more skills, better equipment or a totally godlike driving technique.

Quote :

I really like to spin at the oval sometimes to get the tires hot but that can be also very annoying and most of the time the reason i leave the hotlap mode. At curcuit tracks, its more diffecult to heat the tires and those who can do it or simple had a lucky run, are in the advantage without having more skills, better equipment or a totally godlike driving technique.

That's nonsense, there's no luck in heating the tyres. If you can't heat your tyres without crashing, or spinning off, then you don't deserve to start your hotlap with tyres at a perfect temperature. If your setup makes it hard to heat your tyres, then again, you don't deserve to start your hotlap with optimally heated tyres.

I think the current tyre temperature system is fine, or do we want everything doing for us?

Quote from sinbad :

That's nonsense, there's no luck in heating the tyres. If you can't heat your tyres without crashing, or spinning off, then you don't deserve to start your hotlap with tyres at a perfect temperature. If your setup makes it hard to heat your tyres, then again, you don't deserve to start your hotlap with optimally heated tyres.

I think the current tyre temperature system is fine, or do we want everything doing for us?

whats the big difference for u if the tires are prewarmed or not?
it only saves (alot) of time.
its kinda annoying sometimes, was yesterday hotlapping UF1 @ Kyoto GP Long.... i dont need to say more lol.
its not really an "aid" or so, and as i already said its beeing used in "real racing" too, so why not implement it here too?

Quote from sinbad :

That's nonsense, there's no luck in heating the tyres. If you can't heat your tyres without crashing, or spinning off, then you don't deserve to start your hotlap with tyres at a perfect temperature. If your setup makes it hard to heat your tyres, then again, you don't deserve to start your hotlap with optimally heated tyres.

I think the current tyre temperature system is fine, or do we want everything doing for us?

That's nonsense. Doing spins and drifts to get hot tires is not compareable to the techniques you need to manage the track/hotlap.

What about real racing leagues? Im not sure if they all use pre-heated tires. But if so, why not using this for lfs as well. Sure, we do not get cold tires at all, right now, but why should we not be able to decide, for how much they are pre-heated to a maximum set by the devs?

And no, my point is not a automatic game, but a game with more possibilities and the fact that we can do suggestions here and can discuss it to see how we can find together and profit from it. And finally the devs decide whats good or not. I can live with it, we all have to in case the hotlap model as it exists now, remains with the same conditions but why not try to improve it?

Maybe youre a bit scared now because it would be more fair for everybody and youre loosing your advantage? Hmm

Edit: See i have some WRs, but thats only because i made more actions to get these tires hot. I dont like the fact that the tires, or the temperature of the tires are nearly decisive for my laptime. I think the line and the technique youre moving the vehicle should be more important then this.

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

Problem solved? lol..

It surely affects the lap times and driving yes, did i said anything else? What i mean is (damn language barriers) that, and Nascar 03 has shown it, Tires are not that important compared to the line and technique you are moving the vehicle, oval or curcuit.

The effect is, from my PoV, more powerful and not very well balanced, but its a alpha version, and the first (public) damage (tire) model so im looking foward and im interested if im right on that or not.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

It's great that tyre temps affect lap times and driving. But what's the point of starting them pre-heated to an arbitrary amount below optimum? Surely as a race car driver, if I have tyre warming equipment that can heat r2's to 70 degrees, those same tyre warmers could also manage to heat r1's to 70, instead of 60? Surely as a big fan of 'realism' you can see that if warmers are being used, it's more realistic to be able to set them as you will?

Quote from 510N3D :

That's nonsense. Doing spins and drifts to get hot tires is not compareable to the techniques you need to manage the track/hotlap.

What about real racing leagues? Im not sure if they all use pre-heated tires. But if so, why not using this for lfs as well. Sure, we do not get cold tires at all, right now, but why should we not be able to decide, for how much they are pre-heated to a maximum set by the devs?

And no, my point is not a automatic game, but a game with more possibilities and the fact that we can do suggestions here and can discuss it to see how we can find together and profit from it. And finally the devs decide whats good or not. I can live with it, we all have to in case the hotlap model as it exists now, remains with the same conditions but why not try to improve it?

Maybe youre a bit scared now because it would be more fair for everybody and youre loosing your advantage? Hmm

Edit: See i have some WRs, but thats only because i made more actions to get these tires hot. I dont like the fact that the tires, or the temperature of the tires are nearly decisive for my laptime. I think the line and the technique youre moving the vehicle should be more important then this.

What are you talking about? How do I have any advantage to lose?!

F1 tyre warmers are almost certainly the best available, but not even those are able to heat the tyre to fully optimal temperature. (Hence why after a pit-stop for tyres, they have to initially take it easy on "cold" tyres).

Heating the tyres evenly is a skill (they say Alonso is good at it, which is why he's good at restarts). If you think burnouts and spins are the best way, then that's probably why you don't heat the tyre evenly.

so...let's make a summary of the possibilities for hotlapping mode and hotlapping only (i think we can ignore qulify for now), so to vote them:

(1) start with prewarmed fixed tyre temperature (as it is now)

(2) start with prewarmed user defined tyre temperature

(3) start with cold tyres

(4) start from pits

(5) start from last sector from zero kmh

(6) start from last sector with flying start (i.e. AI drive car before last sector for 5 seconds, then control is passed to user)

my vote goes for (2)+(6) and (4) as an option for hardcore gamers.
(2) is realistic because in real life exist tyre covers that prewarm tyres at desired temperature, (6) is realistic, because it assumes you started from pits, but saves you the time of actually doing it AND it gives no unfair advantage!

I vote for option (8)


That is, 2+6

Option (2) for me. I might want to bust a couple of extra moves before the start/finish line so a flying start is out for me.

*Oh yeah, and (5), start from 0 kph/mph beginning of last split.