Several recent threads have made me rethink my ideas of a few of the things that I feel need to change in LFS. Those two areas are class balance and the tire model. These are two areas which many of us feel need to be adjusted for various reasons and we do not all feel the same way. Since these discussions are spread though several threads I created this new one as I think the solution which will improve both issues is very interlinked.

Class Balance:
Let’s first look at class balance as it will lead to the changes in the tire model. LFS is a racing simulator which contains variety of car types, classes and racing styles. One major difference between the classes in LFS and the classes in real racing is the way the cars are grouped. In live for speed in any given class which has more then a single car the cars them selves are very different in terms of design and performance. This makes balancing the class even more difficult then it needs to be. I can understand that the intent in doing so was to make each car unique in its own way.

The truth of the matter is though that even if they all shared the same weight, power and tire size they would all still be very different in their handling. A FWD car will behave differently then a RWD car, each will perform better in different situations and will cater to different styles of driving. And AWD is also a very different animal then either a FWD or RWD. The next point is that for the more part in most organized racing classes all the cars will be limited to a minimum weight and maximum power. Most cars are going to be built to be as close to these limits as they can, why would you ever intentionally make your car heavier then a competitor or run will less power? The last point is that all the cars in a given class also have maximum tire size and width restrictions.

So I say make the cars in a given class just about the same weight maybe give or take 10kg, give them all about the same HP and torque, but with torque curves that fit the vehicles design, and give them all the same size tires so they all have the same static grip. Let the cars design allow it to be unique, without forcing it to be so and if they still prove to be unbalanced then a few small adjustments to weight or power should get them sorted with less difficulty then it may be now.

The Tire Model:
This brings us nicely in to the changes that I think need to be made to the tire model, but first lets look at why the changes need to be made. Tire in the real world are designed to perform ideally under different situations. As such each tire has different characteristics that define its performance based on its intended use. The tires in LFS appear to be all of very similar design with the only differences being optimal temp, static grip and wear rate. Now with the upcoming changed that tire brands will introduce new possibilities are open. Before the devs get too entrenched in the changes I want to throw out a few ideas for the community to discuss.

The first idea is that the every tire type be designed for its intended purpose and not just be copies of the base with altered grip/wear/optimal temp. To do that we need to also change how tire are linked with the cars. As it is now every car has a predefined wheel diameter and tire width/profile. I think that wheel diameter should be the only spec that should be linked to the vehicle and or vehicle class. The design of the wheel should be free and we should have several choices. The wheel width, tire width, profile, and specs should all be based on the type of tire for a given class. I know this is a big change and may require some major code reworking if it’s not already going to be reworked to allow different brands to have different specs, but in the end it will allow each tire type to be different in more then one or two ways and as a result till allow for more realistic tire physics.

In a given class all the tires types should have the same overall diameter, but each should have a different tread width and profile to suit is purpose and design. For the street cars, an off road tire will be narrower and taller and made form a longer wearing compound then a street tire. A normal road tire is going to be designed to provide a softer ride and longer life then a performance road tire at the cost of handling. In essence every type of tire should vary in more then just the three ways they do now. Each should have a unique combination of tread width, sidewall height and sidewall stiffness in addition to tire compound (which equates to the wear rate, static grip and optimal temp differences we have now.)

The racing tires are another area where we need to change. There is no point in having different tire compounds in the racing tires at this point because different tires compounds are use primarily to suit the ambient temperature differences on any given day or location then they are for any other reason. Since all the tracks in LFS have the same ambient and racing surface temps we need only one compound at this time. Make it easy on yourselves and us and concentrate on making that one compound feel right. When we get varying weather conditions that effect ambient and track temps then introduce different racing compounds. I would also be inclined to ask that when we do get to the point where we need more then one racing tire compound for a given racing class that we have a large number of choices as having to choose between having a little more grip or a little longer wear will make races interesting. So having the differenced between compounds small will ensues that for any given condition there are at least two useable choices.

This brings is to the last point in that when we do get brands that have different handling there will now be many more choices in how they can differ and the differences can be smaller. This will only serve to make the choice to use one brand over another a matter of driving style instead of which is a better tire. With very small differences the only advantage of one brand over another brand would be because that brand just works a little better for the way you drive instead of being just a clearly better tire. It would also be nice if certain handling traits remain persistent through out a brands tire range. For example say Evostar tires offer a slight grip advantage but wear a little faster or that Torro tires like to run little warmer, etc.

Well that my piece and I hope some useful discussion will come of this. The thread is now yours, so discuss.

What can I say... I agree on car classes. The need to be evened out, and as you say, keeping the cars withing a set of 'rules' will achieve this. This is how real car classes get defined, so why not LFS?

About tyres: Not sure how this can be achieved, but the current tiremodel need work. They feel better than before, but their behavious contradict common knowledge and literature on performance tires. I find it hard to apply real life solutions to problems in LFS. If this is tire-model issues or other issues remain to be seen. Gimpster has also pointed out some issue with suspension geometry than can affect tire and car behaviour. I suspect this will come in another thread.

Hmmm... Considering I drove with you when you were working a lot of this out - god I don't recall much of it. Then again, driving while pissed after having had a beautiful curry isn't the best way to recall your drive. Or to drive well, either.

I do remember buzzing you with the BF1 while you drove around in slower cars though.

Ahem.

Seriously - this looks like some really good points. I especially like the classes comments. It's true enough that if you have a class race (Le Mans, WRC, BTCC to name a few wildly different class-based races that go on) then each competitor makes the car to within a fraction of the allowable minimum weight and maximum power, as what is the point otherwise?

As to the tyres, well I don't really know enough to say for definite, but at times they do feel too loose, and heat shouldn't make such a difference to feel - it's as though the heat/wear parameters are swapped, so that when the tyre heats up, it's as though it's mega worn...

what i dont like about the tyres is they look the same in the race and after the race, as they did before the race. real race drivers dont have F9 keys.
ok so the road cars need the F9 key, but formula cars dont. i would like to see my tyres blister, like this.

I feel so strongly about car balance that i'm not even going to moan about the duplicate thread.

That's not blistering speedykev, that is marbles stuck to the tyre.

ITS TYRE!!! Not tire. TYRE!!

Gawddamn Septic.

Dare I mention Netkar here? They have the most realistic looking rubber tyres and they show wear, you get a pretty good visual change in the surface with tyre wear and debris. Flat spots also handle really well, although having the same worn tyres when starting a new game as when you finished the last one, to me is a bit anal.

Good post Gimpter.
I actually haven’t agreed with your past perspectives on tyres all that much in relation to LFS (I’ve bitten my tongue ), but in this case I pretty much agree with what you have to say on tyres, and would like to see it implemented over time .
You have some very good points about car classes and I don’t think it is simple to solve this issue. I believe the TBO class cars have the spec’s they’ve got now because of an attempt to make them “even”.

In real life it is very difficult to have multi-make car classes that are even, one will generally dominate the other as you have currently with the FXO. An example of this is the V8Supercars in Australia, I’ve watched this class develop over the years to be a very competitive class with two “different” make cars, Ford and Holden. They are both RWD V8 sedan’s so should be easy as to keep even, right?
Wrong, one or the other has always dominated the other over most of the years that the class has run and this is with two car makes that are very similar in most aspects, not at all like the TBO class which are cars with greatly differing designs.
It’s only in recent times that the class has become a hotly contested world class event that it is today. And that has only come about by strict category rules and regulations. These days the difference between the two makes of V8Supercars is minimal, from the tyres and front suspension through to the gear box ratios and motors, all is controlled strictly.

So imo you will never have even classes of cars in LFS (such as the TBO class) unless you severely limit the setup options available or have as has been suggested before the ability to set server settings that limit setup options so as to create an “even” class for a particular event/server. This is by far the best option as anything the developer’s hard program in will always only create an even playing field for a short time, until people work out how to tweak and get an advantage in one car or the other. So race organisers and server admins need a dynamic way of creating “even” car classes. This is how it is in real life also, when one car or team begins to dominate proceeding, they change the rules

Well that's my perspective anyway nearly didn't post at all because I think this topic has been discussed a hell of alot in past threads dating back along time

ok then Mr tristancliffe.

Glen, the TBO class has always had different performance levels between the cars. Its been that way since the begining and we don't know how the cars would compair if their only differences were their design and not specs. Right now the cars in any given class differ by so many different ways that ballancing is overly complex. If they were the same in many ways then fewer adjustments would be needed to even then out reasonably well.

I think the biggest reason one car is faster then another in the TBO class is because the lightest fastest car also has the most static grip. If the GTT was better able to get the power down it would close the performance gap nicely, the RB4 sufferes in this way too in addition to having a poor power to weight ratio. I just think the putting all the cars on an even footing will lead to better ballance down the road. Its diffacult to compair oranges to apples, but its even more diffacult to compair an orange with a steak.

Lets not get off topic on how the tires look when worn. That is a completely different topic.

I do agree that it would be nice to balance the classes. But it is not going to be simple. I think I understand what Gimpster is saying, reduce some of the variables so that balancing can happen more easily. With that, I would agree. However, I think by doing this, you will greatly reduce the unique feel of each car. Sure, FWD and RWD difference will be there, but I bet you will lose some of the unique feel of the cars. I love the different feel in the cars and would like to keep as much of that as possible.

A lot of real racing series use different methods to balance cars. Weight restrictions, inlet air restrictors to reduce HP (but generally not a HP limit), fender flair size, wheel size, displacement limits on engines... only complete spec series use HP limits per say. ALMS or LMS uses weight limits, air restrictors, and other things that preserve the unique aspects of each car, whilst trying to make it possible for all car types to be competitive. We have more of a controlled environment so we can balance classes without having to lose the unique feel of each car. A XR GT should be heavier than a XF GTi. The HP output should be different. That is what makes the cars unique and more like the real world. What I am afraid your suggestion would lead to is a single car class that just happens to have FWD, RWD and AWD options with different shapes, but no real character differences in the feel of the cars.

The issue I have with the tires revolves around wear rates and temp.
With R2 tires, in most cases it is almost impossible to wear them out. You reach an overtemperature condition long before you wear the tires out. The temperature gets to the point where they are undriveable. It might be that we all drive the cars too hard and slide them around too much compared to the real world. However, as it sits now, R2's are really only good for qualifying runs or a couple of hotlaps before they are so hot, you can't drive on them. This seems unreasonable to me. R2's should be really good for 2 laps, then drop in grip a lot and then hold steady over the next x laps until nearing the end of the available tread, they start trailing off again quickly. This should be associated with the tread remaining, not just a function of temperature like we have now. If you don't overdrive the R2's during a race, you can keep the temps down, but then you are as slow if not slower then the cars running R3 tires. There just seems to be something wrong with this.

Second, I think excess camber should not necessarily cause overtemp on the inside patch after a lap like it does. However, after a few laps, you should definitely see a lot more wear on the inside patch compared to the rest of the tire. Yes, it should be hotter too, but not overtemp (unless you are spinning tires or sliding a lot).

My point is that real tires should not be going to an overtemp condition so easily.
For the road type tires, we have a bit of a problem. They don't wear very fast... just like real life. You can run a 50 lap race at BL and you should still have tread left. However, road tires will get hot easier and become undriveable if you do try and overdrive the tires. I don't think we see this enough with the road tires. Club racers often use the same tires for several races, or even a whole season. I doubt we could model this in LFS, which is OK, but we should do something about the heating.

So, I guess the tires come down to the issues of the race tires overheating too quickly or easily and not wearing quickly enough, and the road tires not overheating enough when being over-driven.

Quote from Funnybear :

ITS TYRE!!! Not tire. TYRE!!

Gawddamn Septic.

Actually both are good.

Quote from speedykev :

what i dont like about the tyres is they look the same in the race and after the race, as they did before the race. real race drivers dont have F9 keys.
ok so the road cars need the F9 key, but formula cars dont. i would like to see my tyres blister, like this.

:something

lol, that's not blistered tires. That's tires with tire marbles on them.

During an F1 race tyres wear out and create marbles around the track. When a Grand Prix ends drivers will drive around off the racing line to collect these marbles to their tires so as to add weight (yes!), as the car needs to weigh 600 kg after the race.

EDIT: I see Tristan beat me to it by 8 hours

You sure it's about the weight? I can't see some small marbles weigh more than.. let's say a kg.
I always thought it was to increase ride height to compensate for the lost mms due to tyre wear? (And thus to stay within those regulations)

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

:something

lol, that's not blistered tires. That's tires with tire marbles on them.

During an F1 race tyres wear out and create marbles around the track. When a Grand Prix ends drivers will drive around off the racing line to collect these marbles to their tires so as to add weight (yes!), as the car needs to weigh 600 kg after the race.

EDIT: I see Tristan beat me to it by 8 hours

No Shit sherlock.
and it increase ride height.

Quote from TheDeppchef :

You sure it's about the weight? I can't see some small marbles weigh more than.. let's say a kg.
I always thought it was to increase ride height to compensate for the lost mms due to tyre wear? (And thus to stay within those regulations)

What I've heard from the finnish F1 commentator, Mika Salo, they defenately try to collect as much "marbles" as possible on their last lap. You can get few hundred grams, or even more by just making your tires dirty

Quote :

the car needs to weigh 600 kg after the race.

*cough* 605.

Quote from speedykev :

No Shit sherlock.
and it increase ride height.

It's more to increase the weight of the car and I'm pretty sure they can probably pick up a couple of kgs from doing so. Theres no reason for them to want to increase the ride height ... thats the job of the plank. They will measure the thickness of that.

Quote from Becky Rose :

*cough* 605.

*cough* 605 after qualifying, 600 after race

the deformation is pretty real compared to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ist9yQn2uUQ&NR

i am clueless about y it says LFS at the end

the GTRs need to be evened out, i don't care how, it's just that there are no more FXRs.

Gimpster - All sounds good but I have this nagging little dought that even if they get the classes even people want accept it... much like the xf gti and xr gt are much more reasonably balanced in the latest patch but I see this combo even less now than I did in S1

I think it's as much about what car is easier to drive as what car is "faster" at the end of the day. I think this issue will be alive and plaguing us until there is more development in the diff and clutch simulations then we may see a swing in what cars are easier to drive .

In the TBO class for example I think the traction out of corners for the RWD is fine but in comparision to the FWD's the FWD cars are too easy especially with a locked diff

Quote from Rappa Z :

the deformation is pretty real compared to this:
the GTRs need to be evened out, i don't care how, it's just that there are no more FXRs.

Agreed needs a little more top end or maybe a weight reduction