Well, there should be an RBR, LXR, and RAR then.
FXR + (RBR?) + XRR = GT2
FZR + (LXR?) + (RAR?) = GT1

Quote from Funnybear :

I was expecting that.

The FZR is the faster car. Scawen even promotes the fact that it is the faster car. But, In the general racing melee that 1 second difference (And we're including the FXO here) effectily boils down to nothing. It means that you can race the FXO competativly against most FZR drivers. If you can't then you know your up against a truly well setup and raced car.

These cars require work to get the best from them. And I stand by my comment that I will point the fingure at the drivers thant he actual cars for any pronounced discrepancy between cars . . . .

all of this is likely very valid on public servers - it doesn't hold up for league racing in the slightest.

Well, I could easily blow away the "average" (aka not so steady and all over the place) FZR driver with the FXR, but for anyone with a FZR as well tuned and driven as my FXR, I might as well throw in the towel.

Well, unless he somehow crashes off without crashing me off too.

did you clear your lfsworld stats ?

Unfortunately, I tend not to race too much online due to connection and lag issues (I'm running cable modem). It gets boring when you're the only guy on a track most of the time. It's pointless to finish a race when you're the only guy on track. Besides, I usually end up running alone in a casual manner. The last race I had was FXR vs FXR, though neither of us bothered to finish due to horrid (at least 250ms) lag.

I think the real racing could be in the "private" games, though I haven't a clue of their passwords. If anyone here can direct me to the REAL racing action, I'll be very grateful.

that makes sense. i've seen a few japanese and aussie servers up recently in the past few months. hopefully more people in those areas will start playing lfs.

i am very much so looking forward to the next patch. i heard there will be visual updates and i wonder if there will be any changes to the specifications of the cars.

Jamexing, check out the following.

Monday Night Racing - http://www.mondaynightracing.com
(40 racers, sprint racing, reverse grid, not so serious)

Australasion League - http://www.australasianleague.com/
(40-70 racers, endurance racing, hotlap qualify, as serious as Aussie's manage to get)

ARSE Forums (Australian Racing Simulation Enthusiasts) - http://arse.norbtech.com/phpBB/

Quote from Blowtus :

all of this is likely very valid on public servers - it doesn't hold up for league racing in the slightest.

Thats fair enough, but in league racing people generally know what they are doing and wouldn't be trying to run an FXR anyway.

The cars we got are the cars we got. You balance the cars in what ever way other than a real world solution, ballast etc., then you have destroyed that car. Balancing anuthing won't make you happy because you are never going to be happy. You may as well (as mentioned somewhere up there) give each car the same chassis and engine and just change the body shell like every other piece of crap out there . . .

If you really are so competetative (Which is the only reason you want the cars balanced) then you will be racing the fastest car anyway. I have said that I don't. For me it's a particular challenge to setup the car of my choice to become competative.

To answer some accusations here I started racing the FZR before I knew it was the fastest car out there . . . For me it had the best layout, RWD, Engine at the back. As and when we get a mid engined layout I shall be mainly driving that. But I remember racing Cropsy in his FXR and he could make that car rotate the track excedingly fast. There are XRR xrivers out there that a mockery out of the FZR and are extremly enjoyable to race. I make no bones about it that I am an FZR racer but I won't use that as a reason to go against balancing.

The physical attributes of these cars are as close to the real thing as we are going to see anytime soon and in a way I include the apparent discrepancies in performance as part of the package.

The website is teh official website for LFS. If the gumpf on there says that the classes are the way they are then . . . . . And I'm going over old ground again . . . . . thats the way they are.

I wouldn't necessarily say that the FZR has the best layout, each has different advantages. The FZR just has a smoother powerband give much more leeway on how you use it giving a major advantage over the XRR and FXR turbo cars, more so than there should be.

Ballast wouldn't kill the cars. They would behave just the same way albeit a bit slower. There are real life leagues out there that use this way of balancing very effectively. They even go so far as give the winner an added weight ballast to bring the ranks even closer. I am not totally sure I agree with this option of hindering the winners but it seems to be working. This is done in the Speed World Challenge series'.

Quote from STROBE :

Funnybear, your stance on this issue is somewhat tempered by your repeated comparison of an FXO to an FZR. Yes, an FZR is faster than an FXO. I should bloody hope so. An FZR is also far faster than an FXR, which shouldn't always be the case. It should depend on the track.

You know what I mean. All these abbreaviations are just designed to confuse less cerebral members of the community like myself.

Quote from Funnybear :

If you really are so competetative (Which is the only reason you want the cars balanced) then you will be racing the fastest car anyway. I have said that I don't. For me it's a particular challenge to setup the car of my choice to become competative.

I have recently been racing on XRR @ KY3 against FXRs and XRRs and I must say that there have been many good and fair fights when the equipment has been equal enough. But once a faster drivers enter with FZR, the close races are somewhat ruined, because he can easily do seconds faster laptimes with the same effort I am running my XRR.

Quote from Funnybear :

To answer some accusations here I started racing the FZR before I knew it was the fastest car out there . . . For me it had the best layout, RWD, Engine at the back. As and when we get a mid engined layout I shall be mainly driving that. But I remember racing Cropsy in his FXR and he could make that car rotate the track excedingly fast. There are XRR xrivers out there that a mockery out of the FZR and are extremly enjoyable to race. I make no bones about it that I am an FZR racer but I won't use that as a reason to go against balancing.

The thing that you started with the FZR proves nothing . I started with the FXR because it was the easiest to drive, so I could concentrate on learning the tracks. I didn't know it was the slowest until I checked the wrs. I even stuck to the FXR until I felt more certain with the FZR. It has been said many times in this thread that in random online races each car can win. But in league races the FZR is only way to go. And it is always easier to drive the FZR fast than the other two.

Quote from Funnybear :

The physical attributes of these cars are as close to the real thing as we are going to see anytime soon and in a way I include the apparent discrepancies in performance as part of the package.

And that's the way it has been for some time now...

And it looks like it will be like that for a while yet.

maybe a more realistic turbo will change things a bit? at least with the gtr class

Quote from Funnybear :

Thats fair enough, but in league racing people generally know what they are doing and wouldn't be trying to run an FXR anyway.

The cars we got are the cars we got. You balance the cars in what ever way other than a real world solution, ballast etc., then you have destroyed that car.

Why has it destroyed the car? An xrr with a slight power increase is still going to drive very much like an xrr - ie front engined, nicely balanced, not as much grip under acceleration as rear engine. The benefit would be you could run a successful multi-make series or race. You've proposed no benefit for 'unbalanced' car classes other than 'this is the way God / Scavier intended' which is just sycophantic bollocks, imho.

Quote from Carlos H Wrobel :

Yes, please! Still obvious the huge FZR advantage against the XRR, and the advantage of XRR against the FXR! we don't need this! we need fair classes!!
please!!!

that's only on oval, on corners FZR loses (I guess)

Ballast would make a suitable stopgap, player-managed solution to class balancing until the devs see fit to alter the cars' perfomance.

FZR rubber and fuel consumption would only work for so many multiples of the chosen maximum endurance in laps.

With so many variables to balance, it's probably a nightmare to satisfy both a laptime and long distance parity, and fuel/tire consumption diversity.
Again ballast would allow for custom, case-by-case balancing.. Imagine, just for the GTR AS.nat servers, all three GTRs lapping as fast? Not being left standing still at corner exits by FXOs?

Classes would work like they should, and players wanting one-make setups would still have their preference unhindered.

FWIW, alot depends on driver skill I think. I started S2 in the FZR. Not because it is the fastest, I didn't know back then. I never liked the GT or GTTurbo. I only had S1 for a week before I got S2, and didn't like the FXO. I played mostly with the MRT for that week at South City with the 5-6 others total still on S1 (first week of S2). Therefore, I immediately took to the FZR because I felt the others were just glorified GTT's and FXO's. Didn't even care to try them for a while.

North American Sim Racing League (NASRL) was a group that was into GTR, GTL, and rFactor. While waiting for GTR2, they decided to dabble a little in LFS. Several of us "veteran" LFS'ers joined in for a 6 race season. It was around 60/20/20 split or something new LFS'ers, some who have played LFS a little, and long time veterans. Most of the new guys took the FXR, some new and the folks who have a little experience took the FZR, most of us veterans took the FZR. The big exception was CWMAX who drove the XRR. He wiped us FZR drivers all over the track with his XRR. Dominated everywhere. Us other veterans were myself, Banshee, and TH84, all in FZR's for most of the races. Not a bunch of ultra slow drivers there.

I don't really think the GTR class is very unbalanced. It's just that very skilled drivers like the FZR. They will kick your tail no matter what they drive. It's just the way it goes. I'm always getting my rear end kicked by XRR's and FXR's. I'm also having great door to door races with XRR's and FXR's. And, I also whoop on some XRR's and FXR's. It all depends on the skills of the driver. To someone without the skill, the FZR can be a monster where the FXR floats like a butterfly. It's not the fault of the FZR, but the driver. Put me in an FXR, and I won't compete with anyone. Not because it's slow, it's because I can't drive the AWD compared to RWD. For others it's the opposite, they can't keep a RWD under them compared to a docile AWD. I'm not ultra fast, nor am I ultra slow. I just picked the FZR because in June 2005 (July? I forget) it was the sexiest car and I wanted to drive it. I then continued for a long time to get spanked by EVERYONE no matter what car they drove.

Quote from mrodgers :

I just picked the FZR because in June 2005 (July? I forget) it was the sexiest car and I wanted to drive it. I then continued for a long time to get spanked by EVERYONE no matter what car they drove.

similar here thou i prefer xrr and hardly can get close within 2s of my fzr ride.


one more thought on subject - my 0.02$ rather than discovery: imho the classes should be balanced for 10lapper sprints, with no need for refuel and tire change. WITH the possibilty for leagues to apply balast rules, with admin specifing it for every driver (which was suggested here for sure).

Most servers (both public and league ones) probably run no wind, which makes the FZR stick out as the faster car.
But with high wind i think the cars get evened out alot.
Raced a 50lap race on BL gp last friday, and every FZR driver lost about 2seconds per lap while the FXR drivers seemed to have verry little trouble with the wind.
I even tried driving the FXR after the race and was faster then with the FZR,i hate how the FXR handles and never drive it ; yet i was instantly faster driving it over a few laps compared to my FZR times.
Now i dont know if thats purely due to my shoddy driving ,but the FZR seems to have alot more problems with high wind.

Now imagine high wind AND rain (s3) and i can see the FXR having no competition whatsoever. Then your nicely balanced cars in the dry would end up being even more unbalanced. (if u handicap the FZR today so that its slower)
U wil get all the XRR and FZR drivers whning and making threads about how unbalanced the GTR class is and how its totally unfair ,blablabla

In short i dont think balancing the cars right now would be beneficial to LFS ,as it will unbalance them again as soon as we get new features.
Maybe they can tweak the classes a bit in S2 beta; just before S2 final, but even that isnt going to balance them 100% (unless u want 3 exactly the same cars with different shells?)

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Well, there should be an RBR, LXR, and RAR then.
FXR + (RBR?) + XRR = GT2
FZR + (LXR?) + (RAR?) = GT1

That's what I said, but I made it futureproof by leaving GT1 for a supercar class.

Also, what about another car to race in the GT3 (W4H)/ GT4 (my system) class?

Quote from Blowtus :

Why has it destroyed the car? An xrr with a slight power increase is still going to drive very much like an xrr - ie front engined, nicely balanced, not as much grip under acceleration as rear engine. The benefit would be you could run a successful multi-make series or race. You've proposed no benefit for 'unbalanced' car classes other than 'this is the way God / Scavier intended' which is just sycophantic bollocks, imho.

You know what. I have entered into the spirit of things, had a good look at the subject matter and generally conducted myself as well as I could have. I have given reasoned arguements and gathered information. I may be playing devils advocate, but I have done nothing but try and push the subject matter forward. If all you can resort to, Blowtard, is cras generalizations then it suprises me not that Scavier won't 'bow' to public pressure in the rebalancing issue. In fact I am sure he has already made his feelings known on the matter before and I know he's not prone to repeating himself. I find your repsonse insulting to say the least. I have done nothing but explore the topic and give reasoned, if alternative, views on the subject matter.

And prehaps you need to reasses what it is you want from LFS and what it is giving, and will give in the future, to you.

Quote :

In fact I am sure he has already made his feelings known on the matter before and I know he's not prone to repeating himself

I find this dissapointing, although I havn't personally witnessed it.

I might be wrong babes. Just a memory stirrs from the depths of history. But I'm sure he has said something on the subject, somewhere, sometime.

Is there any reason not to have ballast in the mean time?

Coding it in as a new feature would take time off from other stuff that's on Mr. Scawen's to-do list. Though ballast system, as used in real life racing series, would be a good addition to LFS' arsenal of great features nevertheless.