No matter how annoyed Alonso was by Dornboos, that does not give him the right to overtake under red and braketest the overtakee. Just as wrong as MS overtaking Kubica and Alonso under red. No justification for it, period.
Next someone will say Schumi drove into Heidfeld at Hungaroring...
So to summarize the subject of this thread now is which driver has done more "bad" things in his f1 career?
To be fair we'd have to wait for 10 or so years to see what "baddie points" Alonso will have accumulated I guess.
Truth is, there certainly has been controversy over and over again involving Ferrari the past few years. But then again, that was the case for McLaren when it was no1 in the past and the same with Williams after that. When Ferrari was barbecue after barbecue and one pit-crew screw-up after the other it didn't really matter it seems.
And so it also happens with great drivers. See Senna vs Prost - who can forget the deliberate collisions those two had? Even as team-mates and even down to the race that set the champion. No one is a saint and especially not in competetive sports (see doping cases in non-motorsports) - the more complicated they are the more of a chance there is for controversy.
My opinion is to just take it all with a grain of salt and accept the nature of it - F1 drivers are divas and they got whole crews behind them to exploit every single possible way to win (whether via [legal or illegal] technical merit or exploiting rules), sadly the politics and Machiavellian intrigue are part of it and always have been.
However, I'd rather watch a MotoGP race any time.
To be fair we'd have to wait for 10 or so years to see what "baddie points" Alonso will have accumulated I guess.
Truth is, there certainly has been controversy over and over again involving Ferrari the past few years. But then again, that was the case for McLaren when it was no1 in the past and the same with Williams after that. When Ferrari was barbecue after barbecue and one pit-crew screw-up after the other it didn't really matter it seems.
And so it also happens with great drivers. See Senna vs Prost - who can forget the deliberate collisions those two had? Even as team-mates and even down to the race that set the champion. No one is a saint and especially not in competetive sports (see doping cases in non-motorsports) - the more complicated they are the more of a chance there is for controversy.
My opinion is to just take it all with a grain of salt and accept the nature of it - F1 drivers are divas and they got whole crews behind them to exploit every single possible way to win (whether via [legal or illegal] technical merit or exploiting rules), sadly the politics and Machiavellian intrigue are part of it and always have been.
However, I'd rather watch a MotoGP race any time.
So you can point to examples of bizarre FIA decisions favouring Williams or McLaren in order to support this? I won't hold my breath.
I've not watched the videos as I'm at work, but I fully agree that Alonso has done things wrong and been punished for them. The huge difference between Schumi and Alonso is, however, that Alonso has never been accused of cheating (fuel tampering and TC rumours at Benetton in 1994) or ramming his opponent off the track (Hill and Villeneuve). Alonso has done nothing in his career so far to make me question his integrity as a sportsman. Schumacher seems to have done little to confirm his integrity.
You cannot blame schumi for the fuel tampering or TC issues at Benetton. I think he can take a little of the blame for Hill, but in that split second he was just protecting his line into the corner - at that point it wouldn't be clear if he could continue. Hill is also to blame by making a silly move in the heat of the moment and diving up the inside.
As for Villeneuve, again Schumi can hold some of the blame for closing the door big time, but bear in mind Villeneuve came from miles back to do the pass. It can't have been pre-meditated. I bet in similar situations almost all the champions of the last 30 years would have had a go at defending their position just as forcibly.
Alonso hasn't been in F1 long enough to have shown his determination. His first championship was easy, as his only competition was a McLaren that couldn't finish races, although he did prove he can race. He had no need to do nasty things, and no real opportunity. But we've seen in the last few races that Alonso does get rattled, and does do some nasty things, so maybe it's only a matter of time.
In 94 remember the FIA was against Michael (and his team), and every decision favoured Hill and Williams. Yet no one remembers that now. In 97 there were less technical politics going on, and Schumi made a car that shouldn't have been anywhere near the front nearly snatch the title.
There is no doubting Schumi's brilliance behind the wheel, and he's only had a few black marks to his name. But no more that any of the other greats really.
As for Villeneuve, again Schumi can hold some of the blame for closing the door big time, but bear in mind Villeneuve came from miles back to do the pass. It can't have been pre-meditated. I bet in similar situations almost all the champions of the last 30 years would have had a go at defending their position just as forcibly.
Alonso hasn't been in F1 long enough to have shown his determination. His first championship was easy, as his only competition was a McLaren that couldn't finish races, although he did prove he can race. He had no need to do nasty things, and no real opportunity. But we've seen in the last few races that Alonso does get rattled, and does do some nasty things, so maybe it's only a matter of time.
In 94 remember the FIA was against Michael (and his team), and every decision favoured Hill and Williams. Yet no one remembers that now. In 97 there were less technical politics going on, and Schumi made a car that shouldn't have been anywhere near the front nearly snatch the title.
There is no doubting Schumi's brilliance behind the wheel, and he's only had a few black marks to his name. But no more that any of the other greats really.
Alonso has just called MS "the most unsporting driver in the history of Formula One". 
I especially like the timing, a day after everyone has been mourning his retirement.
I especially like the timing, a day after everyone has been mourning his retirement.Did you ever watch the onboard footage from Schumachers car of that incident? To say it would be unclear if he could continue is a bit of a joke Tristan, he slammed that wall so hard he'd have had to had his fillings replaced. The fact that he could even more or less drive in a straight line as he rejoined the track was testement to his talent and his desire to win at all costs. Unfortunately it was an extremely unsporting and unfair thing for him to have done.
Hill did what all racing drivers would have done, including Schumacher.
That statement works the other way around, too.
Okay, maybe excluding Button.
Actually it was 1995 that the fuel issue was brought to attention and Coulthard was disqualified alongside Schumacher - Coulthard was in Williams at the time (with Hill).
The FIA seemed to be pretty favourable of Williams at the time, as tristan pointed out, and not to mention the active suspension and such (a huge blind eye turned to that and the TC system) the 2 years before that...
And I'm sure that digging into the press releases of the McLaren dominant years we'd find just the same. As I said previously, it's the nature of the game/business/sport.
I'm not convinced that is true, I dont think I would have. OK i'm no F1 driver but I did win two club championships in my racing career, and the only time I ever got hauled up in all my years racing where:
1) When lead weight fell off in an accident I was penalised for finishing underweight.
2) Overtaking under yellow, after I had been overtaken I thought i'd missed the green so I retook the place at the next corner and got a black flag (we both did). My bad!
You dont have to cheat to win.
Well, did you ever lose one, because you let someone pass you in the last race of the season?
i was a hill fan..but thats another story...but poor old damon, if he hadnt gone for the pass he would have been knocked for it, now because he did, he's in the wrong!
schumacher knew his race was finished, i bet a weeks wages if he had been a point behind in the championship he would have just parked the car.
Not to put your achievements down, but the comparison is off really. Specifically in the trailing zeroes of the figures of money involved.
And anyhow, there are so many events that have transpired in the past with blatant cheating the recent years, BAR Honda's fuel tank anyone?
What we saw at Monza was clearly a rule exploitation - they could do it and naturally they did it as there's too much at stake. I bet Massa was informed that he had to protest. It's all politics... (broken record: as it has been)
Great drivers punting? Surely not...
EDIT:
Most definetely not.
You're thinking of Brazil '95 where both Benettons and Williams lost their constructors championship points for using illegal fuel.
The OP was talking about the fuel rig that had a missing component to speed up refueling. This caused a pitlane fire at Hockenheim but the team went unpenalised with extremely dubious reasoning: the team said they didn't know of the modification because it had been done by a "junior member" of the team. LOL.
And my opinion on Adelaide and Jerez: I'm convinced that MS knew before the weekends even started that if this kind of situation were to come up he would have Hill/Villeneuve off. He was one point ahead in the championship both times so it was very clear before the race that these situations might occur, so it can't have been a split-second decision. Luckily it only worked once.
Before we discuss Adelaide 94 over and over again, I'd suggest this read:
http://forums.autosport.com/sh ... d.php?&threadid=23482
It's a very good discussion without too many emotions playing into the analysis of the incident.
http://forums.autosport.com/sh ... d.php?&threadid=23482
It's a very good discussion without too many emotions playing into the analysis of the incident.
I race hard but fair, I take the racing rules and I apply them without compromise, but i've never gone so far with them that i've been called unsporting or polarised opinions in the paddock. In fact, I can only think of one incident where I was just plain in the wrong. I was a rookie at the time and thought I could pull off a deep overtake, oh boy was I wrong, and Christ did that hurt. /end reminiss.
The point is Schumacher is on the one hand a talented driver, but on the other he has consistently and persistently bent the rules and conducted himself in an apalling manner on the track. The fact that I think a lot of his praise is in part over the top for his level of talent and that he has never been at any point in his career in an inferior car yet still managed to loose a bucket load of championships is just icing on the cake as far as I am concerned.
You just can't justify acts like the Monaco parking incident, and it doesn't stop there, or even at a handful. He is the worlds most consistent driver in this regard...
Well, both Benetton and Ferrari were quite inferior when he first started with them... perhaps he influenced both teams?
The Monaco incident is quite debatable, there wasn't much to gain if he tried to block others (check the qualification times at the time, at worst he would of been second) and the place he stopped didn't physically block others - see the footage from following cars. Far more to lose if he was penalized than to gain if he did it deliberately and got away with it. However, he was penalized and that was it with that incident.
And all the incidents are really not that many considering he has been in F1 for 15 years. For example, Villeneuve had more "strange" incidents because of risky moves he pulled off on track (one ended up with a marshall getting killed, not that I am blaming DJ Jacques for manslaughter) in a shorter F1 career and alot of them could be considered unsportsmanlike (or "bad judgement", as MSC calls his).
alonso still has lots of time to get a "criminal record" like schumacher. i am sure there won't be a big difference if he lasts as long as schumacher.
but it's very interesting to read the weird views of some schumacher haters.
but it's very interesting to read the weird views of some schumacher haters
.What's very interesting is how people become polarized and debate over a subject like this. We're talking about what essentially is the "game" of some very rich people that had the luck to be born into a life that allowed them to approach such a business (or sport, whatever). And where there is money there is power, corruption and lies (yes, you can hum the "Blue Monday" bassline).
I find it pointless to try and find "who is the lesser evil"... idolizing someone for a certain aspect of their life (like their driving skills) is to be expected I suppose - hating another for being an obstruction to this idol is probably to be expected too, but keeping a distance from things and seeing them as objectively as possible is something should be attempted once in a while.
what said above is sadly true in modern F1, money can buy you everything including buying out your rival, just see Redbull. If F1 is a sport for perfectly honest people then no engineer would go flirt with the rules in every possible opportunity, I think we all accept that in such an intense competition people will risk a lot of stuff in order to win.
My friend, starting second or first is a hell of a difference on Monaco, as much as I like MS and can understand the rest of his controversies, I really find Monaco gate a bad move simply because of how bad it has been executed, and that he really think he could get away with it no problem, that's an over-estimation of the "luxury" of being THE Michael Schumacher the way I see it.
Well first of all you could get your facts right. Alonso didn't overtake the RBR car under a red flag
illepall I don't agree with what he did but he had a reason after getting held up on his lap. Schumacher has knocked, punted, tried to knock people off for the championship. What reason did Schumacher have to brake test Montoya ? What reason has he had to knock people off the track? Has Alonso under race conditions knocked anyone off the road for the win/championship? No.You can't blame Alonso for Schumacher continuing to push his car on under red flags and then continue to pass the group of three. What do you think? That the team told him to do it over the radio? That he managed to see that Ferrari coming hammering down the track?
I can find loads of videos of Schumacher playing dirty games and yet some how the driver you claim to be just as ruthless has none? Alonso is as calm as you like but also a hard racer, I very much doubt he will resort to bumping other cars off the road.
Keiran
I don't see how the FIA opposed Benetton in 1994. They ignored the fuel rig tampering (sorry, I should have made it clear in my earlier post that it was fuel rig tampering) even though it caused a huge fire. Schumacher was given a stop-go in Silverstone for blasting past Damon Hill on the parade lap which he refused to take, hence the black flag and a two race ban. He was disqualified in Belgium because his plank was worn more than 10% (due to a spin across a kerb rather than deliberate fiddling). The punishments given to Schumacher seem reasonable to me.
Even though the decisions went in Williams' favour, I don't see that the FIA favoured them, they just made fair decisions based on the rules.
I've never doubted his ability to drive, nor his ability to develop a car and team. I was only ever criticising his sporting integrity.
He did the exact same thing to the exact same driver at Melbourne 05 and it ended the same way. Schumacher had lost the position but still put Nick on the kerb. I wouldn't class the kerb as part of the track and nor do the rules, they clearly state the white line as the border so Schumacher effectivley forced him off the road when it was all too late.
Keiran
Right. Gesturing the international finger at another driver (Monaco 2004 when he unnecessarily drove into the dirty part of the track and hence went into the armco) or waving hands multiple times at drivers that supposedly held him up or braketesting people that supposedly held him up - under yellow flags, mind you - are sure signs for a very calm person.
Monza GP *Spoiler*
(187 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG