The only cars in rFactor that I come back to are the VW Lupo mod and the stock 2006 Rhez which was included in the 1150 update. Most of the others leave me cold.
As long as every simmer doesn't have Force Dynamics at their rooms, g-forces are needed to be simulated by visual bouncing. I don't like the way rFactor bounces because it feels like it was just an effect - but the problem with LFS are the tracks that are simply too flat. I think everone agrees with this.
Tracks in LFS have only few bumps in certain places. And the bumps are also too "soft" and that's why it looks actually pretty weird in replays. We simply need to have bumps placed randomly everywhere and they need to be more "rough" so that you can feel them better trough FF. Maybe this would also make FF more living feel for players like Alan. Same goes with curbs, they are too flat (expect in FE, but those curbs feel more like concrete) which makes possible pretty unrealistic cutting in corners.
I could write a long reply,but I just dont have the strength to do now. You all ignore me anyway.
LFS has the most varied range of cars I've seen in an un-modded sim. Are you saying the FOX, LX6 & UFR aren't interesting? Have you tried every LFS car extensively? You have an S2 license so surely something interested you enough to make you shell out for it. I think Boris (and others) may just want to get to the bottom of why LFS cars are so uninteresting to you...
If people ignore you, perhaps try explaining your opinions with a bit more clarity. Opinions are fine, it's what forums are for, but if you can't qualify them, people may well think you're just mouthing off
A long reply isn't necessary, just a concise one :up:
If people ignore you, perhaps try explaining your opinions with a bit more clarity. Opinions are fine, it's what forums are for, but if you can't qualify them, people may well think you're just mouthing off
A long reply isn't necessary, just a concise one :up:LFS is the perfect choice for me.
And for me to !
I don`t care about mods, or colorfull graphics, as much as I care for racing. In fact you could have all the mods in the world, and let me have the uf1000 and the Mrt. All I want to do is race - And race all my Lfs friends ONLINE ! - Not some crappy ai drivers - But real live people, all over "mother earth"
In the danish Lfs society, the most wanted improvement, seems to be the sound. Not many, if any, complaints over Lfs as it is rigth now. We all know that this is not the finished product, and we can easily wait for the next "level" because the devs seems to deeply impress us every time they do that. (go to next level)
As a racing simulator Lfs has no competition - If you want a sim racer game, with arcade graphics, feel free to choose Rfactor or whatever you want. Every time you write your silly stuff about Rfactor feeling, you insult most of the people in this forum. Go insult some other people, please !
...that's really missing the point of my post and seing as you rarely do that, I'll take it as a spiteful joke.
What I meant was, don't try to make it sound like LFS doesn't have a long way to go, despite being very good alreay and don't make it sound like its better in every single way than every other sim because it isn't. Yes it is
/runs
I'm not saying there uninteresting (well I might,but perhaps "bore me to death" was a bit tad much) but in what I am interested,is currently unavailable in LFS. Could also be since it was literally months ago I launched LFS for the last time,so I should give a few cars a spin
This is getting booooooring! 20 pages and no reasonable conclusion. Drive what you like and stop convincing people that mine or yours is better.
It is better in every single way that matters. I can say that confidently for myself because I know what the alternatives are and none of them are even in the same galaxy as LFS. It isn't that they don't offer some great elements, many modern titles (and some older ones too) offer some amazing innovations and features, it's just that no sim has ever really finished the job when it comes to realistic mechanical systems like suspension, tyre movement, diff simulations, braking systems etc and the way they relate to the physics of the game environment. These things for many sim racers (especially those of us that have been waiting for over a decade for the egg to crack) set LFS apart from every other title. It's why some of us appear to be fanboys, a misconception, albeit an understandable one.
LFS has always followed a few basic and noble philosophies that we just don't see in action often enough in game development these days. That also sets it apart from potential rivals and again makes some look like fanboys. It matters little how many real cars or tracks you have, how many shaders and effects, how good the AI performs or whether or not the software includes a story mode for engaging single-player entertainment. The main things that set this sim apart are not how it is better or worse than other racing/driving software but rather how it is different than they are.
Sim XXX VS LFS, to me, is a moot discussion. There is no "VS" when it comes to LFS. And that isn't because it outshines every other sim in every area, and it isn't because it is everything it could possibly be, we know it isn't that, yet. How I wish every developer of racing sims would be brave enough to embark on the type of journey that Scavier have. But they haven't, and catching up won't happen overnight.
Apart from the physics and steering wheel feedback, which is undeniably unrivalled in the sim racing world, the way the devs have stuck to their vision and not caved in to commercial interests has produced a very honest race sim which doesn't try to be anything else than a great online race simulator. LFS takes itself seriously as a simulator, not satisfied with mere simulation.
Immersion is exciting, visual elements do help too, but without that real car behaviour and feedback other sims aren't even aiming for the same space, in my opinion. It is easy to look like a fanboy because this is something new and different and very very solid, I have no doubts that LFS will change a lot of sim racer's outlooks and opinions towards racing software in the future and other sim developers have no choice but to roll up their sleeves and work smarter to win your approval for their work.
So, LFS is different and the way in which it is different makes it better on a whole different level, so much that I can't honestly stand another title next to it for comparison.
I've enjoyed the journey so far and I know there's more to come, it just keeps improving in appearance, functionality, features and usability, all the while standing solidly on that unique and comprehensive physics and mechanical simulation. I almost take it for granted that it works so well online.
The choice is simple for me, and for many others I'm sure. I don't begrudge people their choices, but I'd like more people to know that LFS is truly on a different path than its rivals, and that is why it has enjoyed somewhat of a cult following since pre-S1 days up to the present. Once racers realise how LFS is different they become intrigued by the potential for online racing in the future, and look forward to what's to come. I can stand LFS apart from other sims without a wisp of malice or contempt to the other sims, because we aren't comparing apples with apples.
Best post of the thread... and possibly of the whole year. I could never have put it that well myself .
LFS is not about how many "things" you have, but the philosophy of it - its just a shame that most people who think of LFS racers as fanboys don't see this.
quote.
awesome post gunn
Matt, you should win a prize for that. Or at least a little icon underneath your name saying "Best Poster" or something 
I agree, very very well put Gunn!
I am saving your post to my hard drive..
That's why i get so upset when someone say something bad about LFS.
60, or dare i say even 70 % of so called "simmers" are playing sims just for the "real" cars, sounds and tracks, and then they have the nerv to say LFS physics and FF are bad!illepall I mean if you are a man, then admitt why are you playing your game, say it, "it's because i want to drive Ferraris, Porsches, and what not", but please, please be quiet when you are talking about realism..
I am saving your post to my hard drive..
That's why i get so upset when someone say something bad about LFS.
60, or dare i say even 70 % of so called "simmers" are playing sims just for the "real" cars, sounds and tracks, and then they have the nerv to say LFS physics and FF are bad!
illepall I mean if you are a man, then admitt why are you playing your game, say it, "it's because i want to drive Ferraris, Porsches, and what not", but please, please be quiet when you are talking about realism..After this post I take a big risk (
) and ask the following question: What do you think about netKar PRO then? Regarding physics and force feedback it is at least as good as LFS... It has some low-speed quirks, but LFS isn't perfect either...
And to make this clear: I'm only interested in opinions about its physics and force feedback, don't bother to mention the multiplayer mode at all...
) and ask the following question: What do you think about netKar PRO then? Regarding physics and force feedback it is at least as good as LFS... It has some low-speed quirks, but LFS isn't perfect either...And to make this clear: I'm only interested in opinions about its physics and force feedback, don't bother to mention the multiplayer mode at all...
Force feedback is good in some respects (bumps) but crap in others (flat spots), and has overall a lot less feel than LFS in my opinion, especially concerning the rear end of the car.
The physics are okay, although lacking the subtlety of LFS, until you make a mistake. The number of 'Generic 90 degree spin' spins is amazing, and clearly something is either borked or a canned spin effect somewhere.
But as netKar Poo is only at version 0.1 (they put the decimal point in the wrong place on the released version, and called it 1.0) then it's not surprising it's not as good yet. Maybe it will be, but Kunos needs to wake up and pull his head out of whoevers *cough* it's in right now.
The physics are okay, although lacking the subtlety of LFS, until you make a mistake. The number of 'Generic 90 degree spin' spins is amazing, and clearly something is either borked or a canned spin effect somewhere.
But as netKar Poo is only at version 0.1 (they put the decimal point in the wrong place on the released version, and called it 1.0) then it's not surprising it's not as good yet. Maybe it will be, but Kunos needs to wake up and pull his head out of whoevers *cough* it's in right now.
Very nice!
Hey Vykos! Somebody should take this, do a bit of cleanup editing on it, and turn it into an article to publish in one (or more) of the many online magazines. It captures the essence of the LFS experience better than anything else I have read so far.
Have you ever flatspotted tyres in your F3* car? I have no idea how roughly it should feel in real life but in LFS firstly you need to lock brakes very hard to even get a flatspot and it doesn't affect handling that much. Wasn't it Fisichella or Massa who flatspotted his tyre in Monza GP and he actually had to go to change it because it obviously made car handling completely fubar. In LFS I wouldn't need to change tyre because of flatspot...
On the other hand I also hate how nK Poo's flatspots tries to kill my wheel FF motor. Might be realistic or not but plastic wheels are not made to take that.
* if it wasn't an old F3 car, what was it then?
i just realized gtr2 is so crappy, that the anims on menu already reveal the crappy canned physics and effects.
watchin that tvr over curbs is like watching a kingkong movie from the 1920s and saying omg its real!
as a sim it doesnt qualify to be tested , as a game its miles away from the fun of arcade games. you could say the same about all isi/ea/simbin countless regurgitated reheated crap over the years.
watchin that tvr over curbs is like watching a kingkong movie from the 1920s and saying omg its real!
as a sim it doesnt qualify to be tested , as a game its miles away from the fun of arcade games. you could say the same about all isi/ea/simbin countless regurgitated reheated crap over the years.
I can't say I have flatspotted the tyres on the F3 - I locked the inside front a couple of times into Druids at Brands, but it was unloaded, and easily corrected.
But when the F1 drivers flat spot their wheels, it's not the steering vibrations or change of handling that makes them pit, but the intense VISUAL vibrations. The steering won't oscillate that much (certainly not as much as nKP depicts), and the handling will only really be affected by a tendency for the same wheel to lock at the same point.
But flat spotting a wheel in real life is very very difficult. You need a hell of a lot of speed and a very long lock up, with quite a lot of load on the tyre. You don't see many F3 drivers or DTM drivers complaining of flat spots, because at that speed, or with that amount of suspension travel, and with harder tyres, it's just not that noticable... Try it in your road cars (if you want). Lock up at 100mph in a straight line and keep it FULLY locked until you come to a stop. Then drive away - I doubt you'll feel THAT much even when you get back to 100mph.
nKP is right, in some ways, to try and translate the visual vibration to steering vibration, as we can't see or feel the forces acting on us, but it's unrealistic to that extent, and I seriously doubt that any Logitech wheel, G25 or whatever, will withstand it for long. Many of us play racing sims because we CAN'T afford the cost of real racing, so why make race sims destroy hardware (needlessly) and close the gap between sim and reality?
But when the F1 drivers flat spot their wheels, it's not the steering vibrations or change of handling that makes them pit, but the intense VISUAL vibrations. The steering won't oscillate that much (certainly not as much as nKP depicts), and the handling will only really be affected by a tendency for the same wheel to lock at the same point.
But flat spotting a wheel in real life is very very difficult. You need a hell of a lot of speed and a very long lock up, with quite a lot of load on the tyre. You don't see many F3 drivers or DTM drivers complaining of flat spots, because at that speed, or with that amount of suspension travel, and with harder tyres, it's just not that noticable... Try it in your road cars (if you want). Lock up at 100mph in a straight line and keep it FULLY locked until you come to a stop. Then drive away - I doubt you'll feel THAT much even when you get back to 100mph.
nKP is right, in some ways, to try and translate the visual vibration to steering vibration, as we can't see or feel the forces acting on us, but it's unrealistic to that extent, and I seriously doubt that any Logitech wheel, G25 or whatever, will withstand it for long. Many of us play racing sims because we CAN'T afford the cost of real racing, so why make race sims destroy hardware (needlessly) and close the gap between sim and reality?
Hi. Uh what was the topic again???
You know, I really don't know a thing about Rfactor or whatever.
And I don't really care to know all that much more than I do already either.
It may have crappy this or sucky that, but at least it don't have
a 2nd owner that threatens to sue anyone for making a mod for it.
That ought to be worth something.
By the way, I bet this thread gets to be about 30 pages before it gets
locked for Lord knows what.
You know, I really don't know a thing about Rfactor or whatever.
And I don't really care to know all that much more than I do already either.
It may have crappy this or sucky that, but at least it don't have
a 2nd owner that threatens to sue anyone for making a mod for it.
That ought to be worth something.
By the way, I bet this thread gets to be about 30 pages before it gets
locked for Lord knows what.
There's one way to simulate severe flatspots realistically without destroying the hardware. One is to oscillate the steering mildly, as happens IRL. The other effect is to vibrate the visual display the driver actually sees. In essence, it's looks as if someone is vibrating the monitor, but its not since its the graphics itself that's oscillating vertically.
yeah, i've also heard drivers (mostly F1) say its very hard to see because of flatspots and that being the main reason for them having to pit and change tires.
It goes hand in hand with the suspension and chassis rigidity. Because the part in between the tire and steering wheel are just a route through the vibrations go, and they either damp it os strenghten the vibrations. In a normal road car you could even drive octagonal tires with little wheel jerking but in race car you would have big problems. Simply because everything has been designed for different purpose: In a road car passenger comfort and long life. In a race car everything is designed with low weight and maximum performance. An example would be harder springs = more strain for the chassis but also = less chassis movement and better cornering, to a limit, of course
Rfactor vs LFS
(1872 posts, started )
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