Never heard of this rule? where does it come from?
Why is it "obvious you have the corner??
I,m not having a go at you BTW I just don't need the next driver who takes the inside line at a speed they cant keep through the corner and uses my car as a mobile barrier to hold there way through it to quote this rule at me.
Perhaps this is the source of our disagreement. In my view, if driver B gets alongside driver A, on the inside, as they approach a corner, then driver A has not yet lost the position. What if it's a right-hander followed immediately by a left, for example?
but if the overtaking driver did not assume the right to the outside on exit, they would not carry so much speed on the inside at entry, and perhaps the other driver would not have "already lost the position" by the apex. i'm saying that in some cases, it's the assumption about what will happen in the exit that allows the overtaking on entry to occur. take away that assumption, and the overtaking car has to take some responsibility for making a safe pass.
Well then, what is the actual racing line in that instance? If cars natually stay over to the right hand side, then it can be seen as an intentional move off the racing line to collide with another car.
@evilgeek: It's both driver's responsibility to avoid contact, I've said that already. If a car is overtaking from miles back, and just slams into the side of somebody, then of course it doesn't matter how far alongside he hits them, it's his fault.
But if both cars are level approaching the corner, why should the outside car be allowed to brake later than the car on the inside? (that's effectively what we are arguing here. If both cars brake at the absolute limit, the very latest point, then they both end up running to the outside of the road). The car on the inside has the right to be the one that assumes the racing line again, why should he have to brake earlier than he would on the off-chance that someone might try his luck around the outside?
if your on the inside and your not fast enough to be fully in front of him at the exit without your opponent backing off youve got no business being on the inside in the first place except for gaining a position on the inside for the next corner if that one goes in the same direction (which involves giving your opponent room to breath on the outside)
because if the car on the outside brakes too late, he'll run himself off, but if the car on the inside brakes too late, he'll run BOTH cars off. if i'm out to lunch, i'm more than happy to be educated. i just want to UNDERSTAND this, and not blindly let people bully me around on the track.
unless the guy you are racing against sucks and/or makes a huge mistake with braking, you both will end up side by side if you outbrake him to the apex of the corner. From the apex on, its an accelleration battle to corner exit. If the attacker car gets deep inside but not fully past he other car, why should he have the right to just pretend the other car isnt there anymore? That totally goes against the common practices of your decent LFS driver.
It would be crazy to see people pushing eachother around like real life btcc. maybe when netcode and collision detection are better this violent passing will become more acceptable?
Actually I agree with most of what Sinbad says, as long as it's applied in the correct way.
Obviously diving down the inside when you haven't a hope in hells chance of making the corner without a collision is WRONG.
But if you are side by side into the corner, and the inside car gets mostly ahead (i.e. his rear wheels now inline with your fronts) then I believe he has the right to take roughtly what line he likes. Unless he (this generic racer, not Sinbad) is a fool he PROBABLY won't move over quickly, but gradually squeeze the passee making him lift.
But if the car on the outside can hang on and maintain (or rather not lose) his place alongside then he has equal rights to the 'line'.
This is the murky bit where Clerks of the Course would look at - if a driver squeezed when he didn't have enough of a lead, which is why Schumi's squeeze on Montoya was allowed - he DID have JUST enough of a lead to claim the line as his own and force a lift (or a diversion to the grass for Monty because he's too brain dead to lift and think of the race).
But a lot of the time in racing, as I'm sure you all know, no rule is black and white. All have to be interpreted on their merits in each case in a split second, and this is why accidents can and do (and will always) happen. I like to think I have the sense to concede a position rather than hang-on-in-there, and I know when I have the pace or ability to stay alongside. 99% of the time, against good drivers, this works fine, but sometimes we'll have a difference of opinion and an accident (for one of us or both) occurs. It's called racing, and it's why it's fun.
Agree 100% if the car is ahead its your line my friend enjoy ,I back off and get back on your tail Its not about who's inside or outside inside but who's IN FRONT.
An important issue though, I will now put my pasting table away
Yesterday, I was driving around south city in a XRT while everyone else was in F08s. I caused two people to crash because I did not move fast enough. Yes, I did apoligize. But, I think that in LFS, when a car in a different class is coming up behind you, it should display blue flag.
in an f1 car.. visibility is very low and the corners come and go so fast that it is understandable for schumi to do that. it happens all the time. but with the gtr class cars and lower, on most corners you should have enough grip to accellerate without nudging the car being passed off the road.
yes i agree completely. he knew that he would probably take out jpm. and he didnt back down... and of course jpm didnt.
but i would eventually get kicked alot if i drove like schumi does because people hardly ever back down.
Funny, that was exactly the incident that came to my mind when I was reading through your earlier post. I hadn't seen the interviews before though. MS with his classic "I didn't see him" line.
I think it's a good example that shows that opinions about racing incidents will always vary widely amongst racers, simracers, fans etc. One reason for this is that there simply are no rules for racing conduct and there never have been any. There is also seldom any discussion amongst real racers about what is fair and what isn't, usually it's a simple case of two drivers accusing each other and that's it.
The Blackwood chicane is another good example. Personally, I think it's not a place you should go through together as both drivers would have to back of far too much to make this sensible. IMO if two cars are exactly head to head after the hairpin, the car on the right should let the car on the left take the last part of the chicane on the racing line and try to get a run on him down the straight. But again, peoples' opinions will vary.
In LFS you can of course meet drivers from both extremes of the scale, from "get off my line!" to "why did you turn into me even though my nosecone was next to your rear wing?". Generally I would say that in public races the amount of incidents is a little higher than in real racing wheras in league races the drivers actually tend to give more room than real racers would. (at least in the ones I've been in)
I disagree. It's a matter of the exact situation and safety always prevails.
What if you are inside, wheel to wheel, at turn in but I am going 10 mph faster? You are inside, same speed, but your front wheel is only even with my rear wheel? You are inside, front wheel to my rear, 10 mph faster?
With the strict attitude that the one inside has the right of way none of us ever finishes a race. Whenever I write something in a thread like this I am always presuming that the reader understands that I am refering to situations where everyone involved is using their bean. It's an ideal mindset. I've raced some of the best, the quickest, and the cleanest. Their mindset is more on the lines of mine, than it is yours. And we all get to the finish line. One after the other.
No one is finishing 15 laps at the Ring with your philosophy.
Well, that's a rather nice techinque, isn't it? Brake very late when being attacked up the inside. Hopefully the attacker Will try to follow, brake too late, go wide. Now the late apex puts the attackee right back up the inside at exit.
The rule I've always heard is, "Any move that forces the opponent off his intended line is a legitimate passing move." That being said, that kind of temperment can only really be stated and practiced by mature, seasoned drivers. One's of the same mindset. If your front wheels are in my view, or if I even think they are or will be at turn in, you've successfully forced me off my line.
Personally,
Until the sound dept of LFS allows you to hear approaching cars better and from what direction, pitspotter isnt a bad option to keep the carnage and agro down abit.
The other side of is i drive in what i call first person veiw (nfi what its really called) with only the virtual mirror , yes i do have left/right veiws bound to the wheel but with a fixed FOV it can be distracting to change to l/r veiws in a critical corner.
Bottom line for me any aid to stop accidents is well worth the drop in realism...
While i may be totally off base here, my take on the problem lies with not only with peoples attitudes but with the uniformity of the cars we are driving. Even in a one make series the diferences between the cars would be greater irl than we see every time we log onto our favourate server, with setups being transfered we could have 22 identical cars on the grid, this forces people to take ever greater risks to try to gain that extra place.
Yea wont happen on public servers. There are some people out there who are too stupid to realise what they are doing.
When you go to a league which ive started recently, its soo much more professional, everyone slows down alot turn 1 lap 1 to get off clean. Ive never crashed or hit or been hit by another driver in a champ, where as i go to a public server, and i get hit in the first 10 seconds. When i get hit by a new player, i guess its acceptable even though he should practise offline.. we were all new once. But just annoying when you get the local fag who thinks he can have a good time by wreaking others fun. Personally, i think something should be done, but theres nothing really to be done, it would take alot of new coding to perhaps ban someone instantly, but how would you know when it was a mistake etc.
Tricky one it is.
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I just thought of an idea when i sent this message. Bring in something new to LFS at the start when people start this game. Have a strict strict lesson thing before entering online, they must go through certian things. These are like overtaking, starting etc. They must be really strict.
Example, passing. In a misson/task whatever you must overtake the other driver clean and good. To do this you need to come up and line up beside the driver before entering the turn aswell as giving room. Pass without cutting and continue on. They would also learn different turns and outside passing etc.
So say the person clips the other driver on accident, its a fail, or if he slides around, its a fail, etc until its clean. Then have starts, turn 1 lap 1 drills etc. But you think what if we go for a late gutsy pass, that can either be learnt from exp during online which it normally is or can also be a mission.
If not all missions are passed, then you dont have access to go online.. simple..
I would. I always expect people that pass me/defend against me on the inside to move to the outside at some point through the corner. I will only ever try the dangerous outside line if it's obvious the driver inside is allowing it, and, because the right to the line in unquestionably his, I'll be prepared to lift the whole way through the corner, not because he might run me off the road intentionally, but because if one of us has to lift to avoid contact, it's me and not him.
It's not always black and white, Sinbad. I don't know if you're a "hotlapper", (sorry for generalizing, all you 'hotlappers') but you surely sound like one that I just talked above your post.
Good general guideline is, that if inside driver's front tyres are over halfway of outside driver's car (or in his field of view), then the inside driver has right to take it. BUT IF the outside driver is able to maintain his position through the corner, the inside driver MUST NOT force him wide in the exit. But again, thats not black&white neither, you have to judge every scenario individually.
The right to take the line really depends on the situation, and needs to be judged individually in each corner, mostly in fractions of a second. You need to be aware of:
a) Character of corner
Is it a chicane, or oval turn that can be driven 5 aside
b) The position of you and your rival
If it's not clear who has the right to the corner, prepare yourself to any unpredictable maneuvers from your rival, especially if he states in the forums, that he is not going to give any room.
c) The driving line you are going.
I'f you're on the optimum line and someone outbrakes you inside, it may be wiser to give that room and retake position after exit than defend and take a risk of collision (though it would be the outbraker's reason).
d) The speed you are going.
If outbraking car is already on the limits, slowing and turning as much as the car is capable of, it may be wiser to dodge and let him slide into the sand trap than drive your eys closed and shout "mine, mine, mine!" Vice versa, if the outside driver turns faster and is able to drive the longer line as fast as inside driver drives the shorter line (they're side by side thru the corner), the inside one must not force the other wide.
e) How the positions, line and speed may change in the next second
Again, you have to take notice if you are outside on the limits (and had 'the right to the line') and the other can still turn harder and overtake you safely
f) limits of your cars in relation to your speeds and lines.
g)You also have to take notice what are your lines/speeds/positions after the corner, as there might be other one right afterwards and the roles there turn upside-down. (AS club rev was the latest example I noticed, it wasn't reasonable to try outbraking me from right in T1, even though the first apex was there)
UPDATE: Didn't see your latest post when I started writing.. It changes the image a bit.
heres an example of an overtake that didnt go right.
two drivers about 1 tenth of the way into a race leaving the field way behind, driver A is leading, driver B is catching fast and at the end of the srtaight goes for the inside from about 3 lengths back, driver A doesnt see him and takes his normal line to the apex closing the door on B who goes onto inner curb to make room and then gets into a "tank slapper" and ends up doing a slow slide onto the grass infiled, and rejoins in last place, but has to pit due to dmage and eventually finishes 1 1/2 laps down.
so who was at fault, A for closing the door because he didnt notice or B for making a pass from so far back?
B is at fault for diving up the inside when he didnt have the overlap to make it stick, although it depends how close he got to A before the corner, but attempting a move 3 car lengths behind is a bit mental, if he was catching fast, why not wait till he is closer?.
Obviously* driver B. It's ok to take the risk if you think it's worth it, but if it goes wrong, it's ALL your fault.
Thats in sim-racing world. IMO you should never take such risks in real life when the stakes are your own and fellow racers' safety/life, or at least your wallet.
*Well, there can be exeptions too, like Adelaide 1994 for example.
I agree, because driver B was so far back he did not give driver A enough opportunity to see him go for the overtake. However, if driver B had got right up alongside driver A before the turn in point, giving driver A the opportunity to see him then if contact was made I would say probably no ones fault - a classic racing accident. But if anything, driver As fault for not giving racing room at the apex.
However, if Driver B had not managed to stay tight to the apex and that is the reason contact is made, then again it would be driver Bs fault.
maybe when netcode and collision detection are better this violent passing will become more acceptable?
