Hello.

I just remembered something I thought of a while ago. Most cars these days have power steering. And thus most street-to-track conversions also have power steering.
LFS should simulate this. Of course as a switchable option similar to TC and only on cars thet typically have power steering.
A power steering system is very simple. The physical laws behind it are very basic. Thus it shouldn't take long to implement.

That has two advantages. First, it's an improvement that makes LFS closer to reality. Second, it'd improve the "Wow, it feels just like my car"-effect.
I noticed this when I switched from a non-power steering car to a car with power steering. The car without power steering actually felt similar to LFS (if I tweaked a car to have similar tyre dimensions and weight distribution). However a car with power steering feels a bit different, especially in extreme situations where the power steering is active most (30° oversteer in an offcamber downhill corner ).

Vain

Quote from Vain :

Of course as a switchable option similar to TC and only on cars thet typically have power steering.

Most RL cars have power steering. Nuff said.

Can you describe how it felt different, other than say, reducing the FF by 2/3?
(Honest question)

Hmm. Wouldn't just basically make the steering lighter? I have only driven a non-power steering a long ago and I can't recall the difference while in motion being really that much compared to power steering car. And the car I mostly drive now (Primera '97) with power steering feels quite like the cars in LFS, except a tad bit lighter.

Doesn't the presense of the motors mask some of the more subtle effects as well as reducing overall feedback forces? So other than having less useful, softer FFB, what other differences could there be?

A power steered car has a twisting rod between you and the wheels. The angle of deformation of this rod under the steering torque is used to calculate the amount of power steering.
(The angle of deformation is proportional to applied torque. Classic power steering mechanisms multiply this with a specific value and use the result to counter that torque to assist the driver. Newer ones do all kinds of velocity comparison vodoo.)
Personal feelings what my hands tell me:
A power steered car feels very light around the centered position. It's basically like turning a wheel mounted to nothing but a ball-bearing (for small steering angles). That's why it feels so mushy. The E30 with power steering I tried on track was even able to a slight corner by itself, even at high speeds, because there weren't enough centering forces left (for small steering angles). The non power steered cars always immediately snap back to center position.
When the car does something very quickly the twisting rod works like a damper and the change of torque on the wheel is lower. At least it feels like that. Might just be the assisting torque that reduces the effects.
When you grab the wheel very lightly it is very similar to a non-power steered vehicle. (Few forces from hands -> few torque -> few power steering.)
The general feeling is like you have a sponge between you and the wheels. That sponge really is a solid metal twisting rod, but it feels that way. To me. In that car.

I guess Scawen should just try a basic power steering algorithm and see wether it works out. The important bit is that the deformation of the twisting rod isn't instantaneous. There can be a small delay due to non-infinite acceleration.

Vain

95% of all my real life driving is done with cars, that have no power steering .

Things seem to be so different outside of the US. I haven't seen or heard of a car sold new since the early 80's that didn't have power steering. Same with power brakes. Now, it's beginning to be antilock brakes. Now that I am really not looking forward too. More and more are coming standard with antilock brakes. I already have so limited of a selection if I want a new car because it is difficult to find one with a standard transmission and clutch. Cars just get worse and worse as they allow folks with less and less skill, knowledge and ability to drive.

I don't understand why anyone wants to have power steering on though with that option, cause usually power steering gives you worse feedback. While we have perfect powersteering in LFS already, that you can turn down force value without losing authenicity, I don't understand what is the appeal.

Because cars in real life have power steering.
Real cars with power steering feel differently than LFS cars. LFS currently can't simulate cars with power steering.

No one wants TC either, but we still have it, because it's there in real life cars.

Vain

Quote from mrodgers :

Things seem to be so different outside of the US. I haven't seen or heard of a car sold new since the early 80's that didn't have power steering.

Same with me in the UK.

Quote from Vain :

Because cars in real life have power steering.
Real cars with power steering feel differently than LFS cars. LFS currently can't simulate cars with power steering.
No one wants TC either, but we still have it, because it's there in real life cars.
Vain

I am not really against adding power steering, but it really is not that different. Altough it really depends on the car how the power steering is. Some cars have a no feeling to the road and some cars feel just like the non-powersteering cars except the power helps you when you need it, like when standing still.

Having power assisted steering doesn't mean that a car is crap to drive. It all depends on how well it's implemented.

My mum's Saab and sister's Focus are great fun to drive, and they both have power assisted steering. My BMW doesn't have it, and while it might be fun to chuck around, I certainly miss it when it comes to parking.

I do believe the feel of steering has a lot to do with the tires being used, maybe more than power / nonpower steering. I remember in my very first new car I had bought while in college. It was a Geo Storm, an Isuzu import to be sold by GM under the Geo name. Basically it was an Isuzu Impulse with a bit of a different nose. Real piece of junk car, but it was very small, very low C of G, very light, and very nimble. It was a blast to drive, especially when I put the stock size (185 60 R14) Pirelli P500 ($230 each) on it. I never went with a bigger wheel/tire combo and kept it stock. Man did that thing stick to the road. Also, it had fantastic feedback. Back then, in the early 90's, that size tire was quite hard to find. All I could find was performance tires, which were terrible in the western Pennsylvania snow in the winter. After having it a few years, I finally found an all-season in that size from Dunlap. For $59 each, I was very happy. ($230 tires replaced every 8-10000 miles isn't very easy for a college student with a 15-20 hour per week evening job) Immediately I notices not only the expected loss of grip, but also a huge loss in steering feel.

Wow, why does it take me 300 words to make a simple point that I'm trying to make? LOL.

I use a logitech driving force without the force feedback cable (I lost it)
Feels just like power steering! ;p

Quote from Jertje :

I use a logitech driving force without the force feedback cable (I lost it)
Feels just like power steering! ;p

Why dont you just buy a new powersupply from radio shack? I thought they sold power supplies.

[OT]I'm against adding power-steering in real life cars [/OT]
I have no particular opinion about PS in LFS, as long I can turn it of, it's fine with me

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Why dont you just buy a new powersupply from radio shack? I thought they sold power supplies.

Or use one from a laptop (if - that is - they are the same voltage and current. I don't know if they are).

PS: Not the stupid 60 seconds between posts ...

I don't get what's the real point of this... force feedback wheels kind of already have power-steering, or at least steering assistance, because of the current hardware restrictions.

It's not about the absolute torque on your physical wheel, it's about the changed connection between the torque on the wheel and what the car does.
In a vehicle with power steering the movement of the steering wheel does not directly translate into rotation of the tyres.

Vain

Yes it does. Power steering is a fail safe system, so the column is still attached to the rack and pinion, which is still attached to the wheels. All power steering does is reduce the torque required to turn it, which also reduces the feedback torque from the wheels. Thus you need less effort to turn, but get diluted feedback through the wheel.

I'm pretty sure that turning down the FFB to, say, 10% is the same as 'adding' power steering.

It would be a bit more complex I think.. As Tristan says, its still physically connected but it 'helps'.. Lowering FF wouldn't be the same as that would slow the FF down I would say.

Only thing I can see positive on power steering is that with power steering you can't turnt the wheel faster than the power "steering mechanisms" allows you to. Iirc power steering systems are hydraulic, so the pump can't turn the wheel more than once per second. The result would be that FF wheels would resist to turn faster than this for example. At least it was once per second for a tractor

Not very usable in sim racing when you can adjust your in-sim wheel to turn 900 degrees when you turn yours only 200 degrees...

@Tristan:
I explained the mechanism nicely above, and I explained why what I said is true. And you say that I'm wrong for something I never wrote.

I do simply not agree to explaining things twice.
Yes, I'm quite underimpressed by the level of this discussion. Thus last post from me here - feel free to spam now.

Vain

All I'm saying is that the difference between LFS's FFB and 'powersteering' FFB would need to be little more than softening the forces, which is almost the same as lowering the force value with < and >. The 'delay' is already in LFS, because of the time it takes LFS's signal to be converted to a motor response.

I'm not just bashing you, ignoring what you've written or trolling, I'm trying to contribute to your discussion in my own way. You say one thing, and I say that I see it differently. Don't run away just because people don't understand what you mean/want - be stubborn and MAKE us understand/agree