It would have to be a big bump and I can't even see a small bump TBH.
With all that force on the right wheel, a kid could lift it up with its popsicle.
No, lift the inside tyres off the ground and the outside tyres will be overloaded and lose grip (bringing the inside tyres back down again), a kid could push a car on the limit into a slide with its finger tips, but rolling it takes a more violent sudden force. Hence why cars on the limit can still clip curbs etc and not roll over all the time.
In reality the car almost invariably slides rather than rolling as a result of simple cornering, curbs or bumps. Imagine the reaction to something like in that video happening in a real race. They would be shocked, confused, and asking if something had failed on the car. I have never seen a real car roll as easily as the XFR does as a result of simple cornering or hitting minor bumps on the road or slight off-camber gradients.
In reality the car almost invariably slides rather than rolling as a result of simple cornering, curbs or bumps. Imagine the reaction to something like in that video happening in a real race. They would be shocked, confused, and asking if something had failed on the car. I have never seen a real car roll as easily as the XFR does as a result of simple cornering or hitting minor bumps on the road or slight off-camber gradients.
"Looks" like the center of gravity is above the car somewhere.
Either that or the down-force is creating unrealistically high levels of lateral grip? Maybe to compensate for low mechanical grip? Strange indeed.
Either that or the down-force is creating unrealistically high levels of lateral grip? Maybe to compensate for low mechanical grip? Strange indeed.
Someone need send me a setup that's easyfliping! 
My cars never just, "flips" when going through fast corners..
My cars never just, "flips" when going through fast corners..Phill- man - your avatar is nasty. Please change it!
uke:haha. you dont like it?? I find it pretty cool..
This is my two wheel set i used in the "two wheel training" vid i posted on here, for the XFR.
To get it onto two wheels - While turning, decellerate. Be ready to get back on the throttle, and to turn in the opposite direction though, because it comes up fast.
Most of this in my experience is because the default setups are way too soft allowing the car to have more grip but at the same time more body roll. Don't know which setups you're using but you sure need to tighten up (and lower the car) that race_1, which I think many people still use on most tracks.
Seriously guys, "from TOO much grip" ?! Excuse me if i doubt this. From my
experience (both driving and being around cars for over 15 years), i've never
seen any car rollover from too much grip.
From personal experiences:
1- In a Suzuki Samurai when i was learning to drive, i came into a turn too
fast and started sliding (yes, sliding in a vehicle that looks SOOOOO prone to
tipping over, even the stickers in the sun visors say so!), my seatbelt came
off when i regained the grip. Scared the crap out of me i'll tell ya. So that's a
slide, not a rollover. My mother had a REAL Jeep later on, and it was the
same thing, as scared as i was of it at first, it's still one of the best handling
vehicle i've driven after the miata and 240sx, the hard suspension and short
wheelbase make it very maneuvreable and it always stays flat. I've slid in the
YJ many times, never once giving a hint of rolling over. Speed:60kmh approx.
2- In a VW golf. Had a '3-legged dog stance' phase for a while...VW car
(older ones) all had a twist-beam rear suspension, a form of solid-axle
if you will. This means both rear wheels tend to move up/down together,
regardless. When the car settles in a turn, the inside rear wheel lifts off
the ground as it follows the fully compressed outer one. This makes the
car stand on 3 legs, like a male dog peeing. Again, once the tire lifts off
the ground, the car starts sliding progressively. Speed:50-70kmh approx.
3- In a 240sx. Ok, do i need to say more ? How about, drifting. Anyone
ever see drifting cars flip over from sliding ? I know i know, the tires...
I had a 240sx for a few years and never, EVER did i ever feel it could flip
over, it would understeer before the turn and drift it all the way through
if i came in a bit fast. Speed:50-80kmh approx.
4- In a 90''s Buick Regal...My first BIG crash (and only so far), i wasn't
driving. We lost the rear at the entrance of a series of S-curves, choping
a telephone phones and ending up in a parked car, 2 meters from a
100m cliff overlooking a lake...gulp. My friend, the driver, says he remembers
opening his door and seeing nothing under him but the lake down below.
Anyways, we slid off road, then back on road, then off-road again and with
all the stuff the car slid into, nothing made it roll over. The suspension
actually ripped off instead.
Oh, oh, a last one...
5- In that same Golf...i killed that car on the highway. 3 lanes, concrete walls
on either sides. I lost the rear trying to cross from the far left to to the far-
right car. Did 5-6 pendulum cycles at least, each sending the rear sides
violently into the concrete barriers. Went limping sideways to the nearest exit
after...again, suspension was totally wrecked. No tipping over, and even at
what i remember being extremely important slip angles (at times i felt like i
was at 90°, violently whipping 180° the other way constantly.) the car never
threatened to flip. Speed: 60-70kmh
So i don't know, can racing tires give enough grip to actually make the car roll
over on it's own ? Maybe on the GTi, but on the GT ?! I find the GT is very
close to a 240sx in specs and i can'T imagine any tire making it flip over
from taking a turn too fast/sharply. You'd need something to help, like the
curbs in LFS. I've long though THEY were the reason for this, but you
can flip most cars simply by tweaking the setup and doing some slalom a bit.
Now, how many cars do you know flip over in a slalom ?! LFS feels as though
as SOON as the rear inside lifts, the whole car flips almost instantly, like the
cog is wrong...there are now 2 cogs if i remember, a fixed (car's
shape/weight) and a dynamic one (suspension geometry). Maybe the shifting
cog creates torque aroud the fixed one sending the whole body into the
woods, the Blackwoods. In any case, while i wouldn't say you can't flip over
a normal car like the GT, it shouldn't be as easy as it is in LFS at the moment.
In fact, no one was complainging that cars WEREN'T flipping over realisticly
before, so i don't see how they could be flipping over realisticly all of a sudden..
experience (both driving and being around cars for over 15 years), i've never
seen any car rollover from too much grip.
From personal experiences:
1- In a Suzuki Samurai when i was learning to drive, i came into a turn too
fast and started sliding (yes, sliding in a vehicle that looks SOOOOO prone to
tipping over, even the stickers in the sun visors say so!), my seatbelt came
off when i regained the grip. Scared the crap out of me i'll tell ya. So that's a
slide, not a rollover. My mother had a REAL Jeep later on, and it was the
same thing, as scared as i was of it at first, it's still one of the best handling
vehicle i've driven after the miata and 240sx, the hard suspension and short
wheelbase make it very maneuvreable and it always stays flat. I've slid in the
YJ many times, never once giving a hint of rolling over. Speed:60kmh approx.
2- In a VW golf. Had a '3-legged dog stance' phase for a while...VW car
(older ones) all had a twist-beam rear suspension, a form of solid-axle
if you will. This means both rear wheels tend to move up/down together,
regardless. When the car settles in a turn, the inside rear wheel lifts off
the ground as it follows the fully compressed outer one. This makes the
car stand on 3 legs, like a male dog peeing. Again, once the tire lifts off
the ground, the car starts sliding progressively. Speed:50-70kmh approx.
3- In a 240sx. Ok, do i need to say more ? How about, drifting. Anyone
ever see drifting cars flip over from sliding ? I know i know, the tires...
I had a 240sx for a few years and never, EVER did i ever feel it could flip
over, it would understeer before the turn and drift it all the way through
if i came in a bit fast. Speed:50-80kmh approx.
4- In a 90''s Buick Regal...My first BIG crash (and only so far), i wasn't
driving. We lost the rear at the entrance of a series of S-curves, choping
a telephone phones and ending up in a parked car, 2 meters from a
100m cliff overlooking a lake...gulp. My friend, the driver, says he remembers
opening his door and seeing nothing under him but the lake down below.
Anyways, we slid off road, then back on road, then off-road again and with
all the stuff the car slid into, nothing made it roll over. The suspension
actually ripped off instead.
Oh, oh, a last one...
5- In that same Golf...i killed that car on the highway. 3 lanes, concrete walls
on either sides. I lost the rear trying to cross from the far left to to the far-
right car. Did 5-6 pendulum cycles at least, each sending the rear sides
violently into the concrete barriers. Went limping sideways to the nearest exit
after...again, suspension was totally wrecked. No tipping over, and even at
what i remember being extremely important slip angles (at times i felt like i
was at 90°, violently whipping 180° the other way constantly.) the car never
threatened to flip. Speed: 60-70kmh
So i don't know, can racing tires give enough grip to actually make the car roll
over on it's own ? Maybe on the GTi, but on the GT ?! I find the GT is very
close to a 240sx in specs and i can'T imagine any tire making it flip over
from taking a turn too fast/sharply. You'd need something to help, like the
curbs in LFS. I've long though THEY were the reason for this, but you
can flip most cars simply by tweaking the setup and doing some slalom a bit.
Now, how many cars do you know flip over in a slalom ?! LFS feels as though
as SOON as the rear inside lifts, the whole car flips almost instantly, like the
cog is wrong...there are now 2 cogs if i remember, a fixed (car's
shape/weight) and a dynamic one (suspension geometry). Maybe the shifting
cog creates torque aroud the fixed one sending the whole body into the
woods, the Blackwoods. In any case, while i wouldn't say you can't flip over
a normal car like the GT, it shouldn't be as easy as it is in LFS at the moment.
In fact, no one was complainging that cars WEREN'T flipping over realisticly
before, so i don't see how they could be flipping over realisticly all of a sudden..
I tried out the XRR for the first time a while ago, around Blackwood. Not knowing in the slightest where the limits of the car were, I was going very cautiously. First lap out the pits I took my usual line through the chicane, but caught the raised edge of the kerb (away from the tarmac) on the inside of the left-hander with both left wheels. No biggie, something I'd done plenty times before in other cars, but two seconds later I was sliding down the start of the main straight on my roof. :o
I've got a TJ, which comes with the "modern" coil live-axle suspensions front and rear.
I too have driven it like piss without flipping over, and spun it more than once on wet pavement. Oops.Of course, its a lot more LIKELY to roll over than my Mazda, given the appropriate set of circumstances. Stickier tires would be the biggest one, followed by a bump at the inside wheel in a turn, like a curb you were too close to.
Stupid Consumer Reports thought that was a safety issue. Silly worrywarts.
Lots of performance oriented RWD cars lift inside fronts.
Yeah. I'd note that MULTIPLE mx6.com members, some with lowered cars, have managed to roll them. 2nd gen MX6/Probe lowered is at least as low as a 240sx and a lot harder to get sideways. Goes to show the right set of circumstance can flip anything. There are also a good number of Miatas that have rolled over, I wouldn't drive one without a good rollbar.
With the appropriately screwy setup, and the appropriately sticky tires, you could almost certainly flip a real life GT wth some careful slalom-like maneuvers. Realistically non-silly setups would make it very unlikely without curbs/other stuff.
Lots and lots of trucks SUVs and vans even on road tyres if handled improperly. Cars...not that many, though I've seen it done.
I haven't driven GTi much in S2, but my setups (just as in S1) still lift or come close to lifting the inside rear, noticeable with the locked inside rear on corner entry in replays. Real-life FWD racecars do this as well.
Is it really that easy to flip a GT without a bizarre setup or a big kerb? I think I need to go play with that. Hadn't noticed it before to be honest. I flip the XFR constantly.
edit: remembered during testing a HUGE factor in rollovers that I didn't mention: locked or very effective limited slip differentials. Allows the outside rear wheel to drive the vehicle right over. Not only does your typical road car not have sticky tires, it doesn't have a LSD that can provide meaningful torque to the outside wheel if the inner is off the ground. Most real street LSDs are like a LFS one set to 10-25 percent.
On the road that my office is on at night sometimes you get "fast and furious racers". One night, about a year ago, a riced-up Hyundai I think it was sped down the street (longish straight) and I guess for some reason thought it was cool to use the handbrake at high velocity, went sideways, flipped (rolled multiple times) - driver and I think 2 passengers dead (no seatbelts on). I've also seen near-flips with go-karts (without "assistance" from other karts) - ofcourse one could say that they're not that heavy, but still, they're not that tall either and they do lack long suspension travel as well.
i recently read that the Dacia Logan (by Renault) finished it's "moose test" on the roof
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/n ... enault_rolls_on_test.html
plus, i think the A-class mercedes did the same.
Yes, they do, but what i was saying is that in LFS i feel the car wants to flip
over as soon as the wheel lifts off the ground. I haven't felt that in any VWs
myself. Maybe it's a matter of perception, i dunno. This is why i talked about
the cog. If the cog moves higher, it would make the car more roll-over prone.
I've also read how the cog is affected by gravity as soon as it moves off the
roll axis. It tends to fall to the ground, rolling the car body in the process.
This is additionally to the centripede force 'pulling' the car to the outside of
the turn. Thing is, they both increase body roll, whereas LFS feels like
bodyroll is limited at the point where the whole car flips over instead.
Mmm, interesting. This reminds when i was a kid and bought my first RC car,
some cheap thing at RadioShack. As soon as i made it turn, it would flip over.
Took me a while to figure it out, but i found that the diff (rwd..) was blocked.
It had a basic open diff, but still, blocked it was useless and the car would
roll-over as soon as a turned. Returning the car and getting a working
replacement fixed everything, in fact, i don't remember rolling it after that,
not counting jumps and 'riding ramps'...
So, seeing as there are issues under braking with the differentials (when
brakes are released actually, i think), maybe they are also partly responsible
for this behavior.
As an automotive mechanical engineer those videoes (hoping up the kerb) and rolling out of the left hander are actually quite realistic.
When your comparing these incidents to real life your forgetting one thing, your setups. Road cars will not ever be setup that stiff because of the low frequency bounce effect.
All please google how a spring responds to differing frequency input and how the stiffness of the spring effects this.
A spring at low frequency tends to respond with a unit displacement (what goes in pretty much comes out) as it tends towards the natural frequency (resonance) of the spring the response becomes infinite (with damping the response is not infinite but instead very large) after this frequency the respone drops back to unity and then tails of at 20dB/decade in frequency.
The stiffness of a spring effects where the natural frequency is and the stiffer the spring the higher the frequency to which it occurs.
In road setups its stupidly low so it'll never happen unless forced (low riders using pnuematics) but in lfs you can have very high levels of spring stiffness coupled with high levels of damping and anti roll yields to one very stiff setup.
If you want an example of this effect drive over a cattle grid slow, and then drive over it faster.
You will notice as you get faster the displacment gets much lower. (but the acceleration as its dependant on your speed will get faster)
Edit - I almost forgot, if you want to have a easy roll over setup, set the the bog standard gti to have the max stiffness of suspension, max damping, max anti roll and the highest ground clearence (raises CoG) and then drive it on blackwood, you'll find if you run over the kurbs there (mainly into turn one) and you clip the inside you'll either go up onto two wheels or over onto your side very easily
When your comparing these incidents to real life your forgetting one thing, your setups. Road cars will not ever be setup that stiff because of the low frequency bounce effect.
All please google how a spring responds to differing frequency input and how the stiffness of the spring effects this.
A spring at low frequency tends to respond with a unit displacement (what goes in pretty much comes out) as it tends towards the natural frequency (resonance) of the spring the response becomes infinite (with damping the response is not infinite but instead very large) after this frequency the respone drops back to unity and then tails of at 20dB/decade in frequency.
The stiffness of a spring effects where the natural frequency is and the stiffer the spring the higher the frequency to which it occurs.
In road setups its stupidly low so it'll never happen unless forced (low riders using pnuematics) but in lfs you can have very high levels of spring stiffness coupled with high levels of damping and anti roll yields to one very stiff setup.
If you want an example of this effect drive over a cattle grid slow, and then drive over it faster.
You will notice as you get faster the displacment gets much lower. (but the acceleration as its dependant on your speed will get faster)
Edit - I almost forgot, if you want to have a easy roll over setup, set the the bog standard gti to have the max stiffness of suspension, max damping, max anti roll and the highest ground clearence (raises CoG) and then drive it on blackwood, you'll find if you run over the kurbs there (mainly into turn one) and you clip the inside you'll either go up onto two wheels or over onto your side very easily
LOL- I am watching a race on SPEED channel.. It is the "Grand Am Cup series" ST class.. Slightly modified road cars.. suspension modded too of course.
It is at Phoenix AZ "Roval"
http://www.speedtv.com/programs/122/
http://www.grandamerican.com/Links.asp
I just saw a mini flip over after sliding over a curb.. so it does happen IRL.. maybe not as much as in LFS though.
It is at Phoenix AZ "Roval"
http://www.speedtv.com/programs/122/
http://www.grandamerican.com/Links.asp
I just saw a mini flip over after sliding over a curb.. so it does happen IRL.. maybe not as much as in LFS though.
If you want an example of this effect drive over a cattle grid slow, and then drive over it faster.
You will notice as you get faster the displacment gets much lower. (but the acceleration as its dependant on your speed will get faster)
What is a cattle grid?
This is one.. it's to stop cattle escaping their paddocks without the use of gates on roads 
Talking about flips;
here's a very strange one:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NGS5KDIM
it's not a one-off thing either, I've done similar things on the last corner of the blackwood too.
Sometimes when you hit the curb funny things happen.
here's a very strange one:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NGS5KDIM
it's not a one-off thing either, I've done similar things on the last corner of the blackwood too.
Sometimes when you hit the curb funny things happen.
Cool. I don't know if anything similar is prevalent in North America, I usually just see gates of various types.
I've seen lines painted across roads to "instruct" deer where to cros....lol...dunno how effective that actually is.
I think the combination of using unrealistic setups(aka too dangerous/twitchy in real life) and there being no moose-test for our cars might make most of this problem
But it could aswell be related to the cars flying miles high after a crash. Maybe somewhere the gravity or forces get miscalculated at times.
But it could aswell be related to the cars flying miles high after a crash. Maybe somewhere the gravity or forces get miscalculated at times.
We have signs like that for our animals here... lol.
I was almost going to post a similar thread last week
it 'feels' like the xfr's centre of gravity is too high. how is weight distribution modeled anyway, anyone?
it 'feels' like the xfr's centre of gravity is too high. how is weight distribution modeled anyway, anyone?
I'd have to say it does look like it's got something to do with both the physics engine as well as the explainable effects of hitting a high kerb hard.
I drive the fxr on all the tracks and it can roll on the taller kerbs but only when diven in such a way that would either destroy the suspension or roll a real GTR / V8 race car.
I drive the fxr on all the tracks and it can roll on the taller kerbs but only when diven in such a way that would either destroy the suspension or roll a real GTR / V8 race car.
XFR Fliping !
(58 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG