From what I've understood, it's just another league, but with added statistics... There would be rules made by a real-life racing governing body (which I don't think would that big an effect, they might not be that different to other leagues' rules), and there is the slight chance some RL racing driver might pop in (by accident)... Is that about right? Or have I missed something?

Nothing personal, I'm just not the marketing-speaking type of guy...

I can see a few benefits for American sim racers and perhaps some potential in the future once the project overcomes its faults, but the black hole tactics used to raise revenue are just getting old on the Internet. I've spent an hour on the site and have walked away not feeling good about giving them my money.

One thing I can say with certainty is that I wouldn't want to run an online series where other people were resposible for the running, marshalling, and stewarding of the event. In essence it wouldn't be my series at all. As an organiser I'd be left with little more to do than to talk about it on a blog or forum that I would also have to pay for. Custom paintjobs are a fact in sim racing and in real life. I wouldn't run a series that didn't allow some customisation of paintjobs. Therefore, competitors wishing to join my series would have to be a fully paid member of Race2Play. That is not acceptable.

Quote :

Spend a day with Race2Play, and you'll be wondering why sim racing hasn't been this way all along.

Actually, sim racing has a lot further to go than this before I'd be satisfied with its evolution.

I think that Race2Play is a fantastic idea for a small business and I'm sure that the people involved will make good money out of it. But as a sim racer or event organiser I'm not overly impressed. I think the idea has potential though if it evolves sensibly enough.

Quote from Shotglass :

technical mistake again huh ?

is it ever a mistake when i get the usual coward judgemental intermission from you?
find a new idol to stalk dude, its getting old.

in the spirit of constructiveness i wanna make a recomendation for race2play, if possible please fix the website. it says:

"First-person motorsports for everyone

Race2Play organizes multiplayer online auto racing events and series for virtual as well as real-world motorsports professionals and amateurs on the PC. Sign up for your free Basic membership today. And to celebrate our opening, all features normally reserved for the paid Standard membership will be free to all until Jan. 1!"

1) you dont offer anything. you provide and charge for it.
2) its not for everyone. its for paying customers. having people reg for free is always a smart move to gather people. making permanent mottos out of that temporary situation is not.
3) by wanting people here, for free to make it work for you and your profit, you just confirmed further my original post, which was already underlined by that hilarious self braggin line of some assvoting. not only here but in r2p website also. twix fun for me

To fully understand what R2P has to offer you have to sign up and join some races. Get out there and notice that the races aren't like a pick up race. Take notice that you see familiar faces driving more than one type of car, or even more than one game (have mercy, there are choices of games?!). You don't get an idea of how nice it all is unless YOU TAKE PART. That is like looking at the back of a game box and saying, "I don't see the big deal." You won't unless you play. If you are all too busy to even try it out, considering it is FREE, then it is your loss. The basic, free, subscription to R2P is enough to allow you to do most everything you want. You don't have to pay them anything and you can use almost all of the features they have to offer. If you want to pay them a little then you get to play with a few extra features. I don't see the big problem here.

Myself, I don't run LFS that much online. I'm not a fan of pick up races and I can't ever seem to find a league that fits my schedule (apparently only Europeans run leagues in LFS). So basically it just sits on my HD taking up space. I'd love to run it online and R2P would provide just that opportunity. If it makes me an evil person because I want to see R2P support LFS then so be it.

Jason

I'm also struggling to see how people can try to make a small business work out of offering people more of what they already do for free, or am i entirely missing the point?
Isn't it like trying to institutionalise a small but thriving club? To what ends? I can't see an advantage.

So you find it a bit like paying for one of the commercial sims instead of Racer? Or using MS Office instead of Open Office.org? Not to mention....no one has to pay anything. They don't make you pay anything, there is a free membership that allows you to race all you want on their servers.

I have to wonder why everyone focuses on the pay part of it instead of just trying it out, for free mind you, and actually seeing what it is like. I suppose the more direct comparison is to say it is like a league you pay membership fees to. Those do exsist and they are popular, at least they look like they might be. What do they give you that a free league doesn't? What R2P does give you is the chance to run multiple series in different cars, and even games, with people you know. You can either do that FOR FREE or you can CHOOSE to pay them money.

As I said, please just sign up to the site and do a race or two. It takes time to have it all make sense. I wasn't a big fan of it at first but once I figured the site out and ran a few race it all clicked. You really just don't get the full idea of what R2P is like by looking in through the window.

Jason

Sorry if I missed a point but why is it not possible to get the Results straight out of LFS World?

There are the Race Results, all Lap times from every driver and from every Race, thats all one would need or not? It can be easily exported one would think?

I think they might be looking for starting grids and DNFs due to disconnects and whatnot, which are not included in LFSWorld.

Quote from kart38 :

The basic, free, subscription to R2P is enough to allow you to do most everything you want.

No it doesn't let me do everything I want, and the "early bird get it for free" offer is designed to bolster their site numbers and generate momentum so that they don't fall flat on their face from lack of interest. Many businesses use that strategy and it is usually a successful one.
I also do not participate in pick-up races. It's a good idea not to assume that everybody wants what you want or finds the same interest in things that you do. I spent a lot of time going through the site I didn't just "look at the box". They offer me nothing that I can't already get. Any comments I have made have absolutely been exactly how I feel.
I could easily list a dozen more examples of things I don't like about the project but I didn't think it appropriate to air them publicly.

For someone like you that doesn't use LFS online much and has trouble finding busy servers in the US it may work out to be a good thing. But that's you, not everybody. Go and enjoy it without getting your panties in a twist over the fact that not everybody finds it as useful as you might do.

Quote from TMcArthur :

I am sorry to hear some have the attitude of, "if it doesnt help me, then Im not helping you". That is just really sad and selfish.

Well, all things considered I'm not entirely sure that's exactly fair.

Is R2P entirely non-profit? Does it stand, in any way, to financially gain - whether directly, or indirectly, as a subsequence or consequence - from the participation and input of unpaid contributors?

Before concluding whether a person's decision to not make a voluntary contribution to R2P is a SELFISH act, I think that question is rather an important one to have answered!

I hate to post multiple consecutive posts. I'll merge them later...

Quote from TMcArthur :

To race in a good LFS series you need to go to STCC (I assume, Ive never been in one of their events of course).

That's simply not the case, even remotely. The STCC is just one of MANY leagues in LFS. The MoE, ESL, OLFSL, LXCC, UXRL.. the list goes on. BRILLIANT leagues, PROFESSIONAL leagues (yes, real money!), with fantastic levels of participation. The STCC is just the one that's been brought to your attention recently, and I must say that I think it's an attrocity that people who are supposedly so deeply involved, and worldly-wise with regards to the whole business of sim racing should be SO ignorant of such a significant portion of the day-in-day-out sim racing that's happening in the world.

That's all well and good, Tim, but if a person makes an individual decision to not commit the time required to develop and deploy functionality without a return on that investment of time in order to justify it, that decision is neither sad NOR selfish.

An influx of new LFS race licenses would not give us anything that we aren't already going to get development-wise and would not speed things up at all development-wise. Yes, it would benefit the devs financially, but that goes without saying.

I like the idea that R2P can spread the word about professionalism in sim racing online and I like the idea that real racers are getting involved in sim communities, though these things are in no way exclusive to your site nor lacking in sim communities across the globe right now.

Something that I can readily rebuke is the attitude or notion that you are here just to support LFS. You state that LFS wasn't originally included in the plan due to "the exporting issues", but these issues are small or don't even exist. Just as Filsca was not motivated enough to pursue the task even when offered a path to do so, I see very little effort in the lead up to R2P that would lead to these tiny issues being resolved to the benefit of LFS. If it has occurred it certainly hasn't done so with any gusto or proactive enthusiasm.

To R2P any sim represents profits. Despite the probable existance of a genuine desire to see more organised sim racing and good racecraft adopted in virtual racing formats, R2P seems designed to generate profit. Not just cover costs, but to create strong profits. That's fine in itself (we all gotta eat right?), but let's then not pretend that it is some noble saviour of online sim racing. Some of the hype on the website is just unneccessary, almost offensive in context with your apparent "philosphy". It's a big put-off to me immediately.

To participate in events or series that utilise custom paintjobs or models requires paid membership, and not just the basic paid membership either. Why should it cost more than access to any other race? It shouldn't. The argument about more content to download is vapor-thin. How can you convince potential customers of the extra value present in the higher fee? We cope perfectly well in LFS with custom skins, it isn't an aspect that needs to cost the racer any extra money. It's a charge that seems to be applied to an aspect of sim racing purely to glean more profits. I want to run and participate in events that utilise custom skins of one form or another and I won't be paying any extra to do so. Well, why should I? It isn't neccessary for anybody to pay for the privilege. No matter if I am right or wrong, it really does seem like R2P is just milking more money with this approach.

How much do you pay your clerks and stewards? Surely they don't work for free.

I hope R2P has great success, I really do, but it is really just one more sim racing entity on the Internet, I don't view it as a revolutionary concept. It supplies a service, ensures that costs are covered, and then makes profit.

Success depends soley on customer participation (and apparently some really cheesy marketing), and that is why you have an interest in various sim communities in relation to R2P. The differences between cultivating and harvesting spring to mind.

What I find pretty ironic is that R2P will charge people that want to use custom skins just to be able to participate in leagues.

It's a good example of how LFS has a divergent view on what a simracing community should be. Even if LFS' core cannot be modded (which is partly untrue if you consider the outgauge components), the basic idea that people will want their custom skins to be readily and easily available being put to use with a custom skins downloader embedded in the sim itself shows that being forced to pay to have access to this ability is ridiculous.

In any case, why would people have to spend hours downloading car packs before being able to just participate in a race when a league usually has no more than 25 cars? A 1024x1024 skin weights under 400k, that's such a small amount of bandwidth and server space, I have no idea how it can justify charging for it.

All I see around the R2P website is a collection of overdone arguments and justifications to charge money for a service that's easily done for free. I have really tried to find a valid reason to use R2P, but I just can't find it. I personally am part of a community that somewhat operates like R2P (a provincial thing, which is multi-sim and which is paying also), but the only reason they will ask members a fee is because they rent their own servers. All the leagues' administration, results gathering, site building is up to the league organizers, but you're not paying for more than the cost of renting race servers. And even then, the LFS section of this community is still non-paying, because we have a kind member that hosts races himself for free, because we just love racing on LFS.

All in all, I would pay for Quebec Racing (the community I'm talking about) because I know the league organizers are in for the fun and can adapt to the racers' needs. I wouldn't for R2P because it is just a way for the site owners to relax and watch money come in. They do nothing more than charge you for a membership to a site that dictates the rules, dictates what you can do with your league, and dictates what you are or aren't entitled to do as a racer. This actually gives no benefit, only limits.

My honest and objective two cents.

***edit***

Ok, I know other games are very backwards in that aspect of custom skins management, but you just shot yourself in the foot with the league-hopping argument. How professional does it look when you can just hop from race to race without any restraint or actual qualification requirements? I'm a little lost there. Usually, if you register for a series, you're in from the beginning until the end, and you have to earn your spot in the series (for bigger ones, where there is actually more people than race spots). I'm not sure a community where you can just meander like a butterfly from race to race promotes professional racing.

Quote from TMcArthur :

And what if that new member decides or forgets to download the latest carset? He can't join the servers at all! What kind of service makes their members jump through those kind of hoops just to ENJOY a sim-racer or two each week?

This is not an issue in LFS. It was identified as a potential issue as long ago as three years, and now LFS sports an auto skin-download feature which grabs a low-res copy of the licensed racer's skin directly from the LFS World web site. LFS server software ensures that a joining player is notified about the missing skins and gives the option to download them. These skins are placed in a special folder called skins_x, making it a fairly straightforward task of purging old skins using convential methods in the Windows environment. For an entity like R2P there is no significant storage overhead or support overhead in relation to running LFS servers. For the lincensed LFS racer there is a negligible wait for the skins to be downloaded.

On another tangent, I'm sure you will appreciate that some event organisers need much more freedom and scope than R2P can offer if said organisers want to realise their vision of what a great online race series can or could be. The job of organising and managing events (as I suppose you would already know) requires very dedicated members of the community who can be consistently active in their support of the event or series. Many racers can not realise that such dedicated people are not that easy to find and even then their real lives make demands that may effect the running of the event or series. While it is fair to say that community involvement and enthusiasm is present in many online gaming arenas it is also important to not overlook the incredible amount of dedicated and passionate community support that LFS enjoys from its community. The benefits to the community that come from being involved in the organising and running of events are very valuable indeed. These benefits will be realised by R2P organisers working with event management too. It is such a great feeling to empower individuals by allowing them to participate in the organisational and management side of sim racing events and something which I have encouraged and intend to continue encouraging.
We have perhaps an unusually high level of community participation and unity with LFS and even though it may sometimes seem to be a barrier built around our sim and its developers, in reality it is a groundswell that is gaining momentum. It actually feels good to be a part of the whole, many LFS racers can relate to that I'm sure.

So in a way I do see R2P as a more organised pick-up race arena. I'd like to see more members of our community getting involved in the management of LFS organised online racing. The goals that I would personally like our community to achieve perhaps are beyond the scope of a project like R2P. I think the future of online or semi-automated race management is a much bigger picture than even the dreamers are realising. I see a brighter future in a more dedicated race and event management solution for race sims as opposed to a one stop shop for all sims.
I recognise the value in the sharing of real life expertise and resources from real racing communities and organisations amongst the various sim communities, though I would rather it wasn't to be found in one main location either.

Perhaps it's just me that doesn't understand these things. In LFS, I join a league race server immediately prior to the race preliminaries, and the latest version of each participating team's livery is instantly downloaded automatically through the LFS system and applied to the car. I've never had to ask for, or go look for, a car "skin" anywhere other than on the car being driven.

Perhaps, and forgive me for saying this Tim.. I am genuinely confused, but perhaps there are elements to R2P which might appeal to players of other sims, but won't to LFS because they're already delivered in the sim itself without any additional charge, or effort. Many aspects of LFS are, it has to be said, VERY philanthropic on the part of the developers.. and you genuinely never get the impression that cash is their bottom line. To the user of a software package, this is very very attractive indeed.

I'm suddenly reminded of an enterprising guy coming to visit me, with a very interesting proposal. I could, for a fee, advertise my business on the notice board in my local library. I pointed out to him that, actually, I can go pin an ad on that board myself, with no cost to me at all. His plan was, it transpired, to take over the noticeboard by leasing it from the library, and then selling advertising space on it.

I'm afraid his business never took off.. but I have to say, I was impressed by his enthusiasm for his business model.

Sam, your logic touches the part of my brain that makes me giggle. Reminds me of when I invited Disciples of Jehovah in for a chat. Not sure they'll ever come back.

hehe.. let's say I can only get motion-blurred photos of the Witnesses as they pass my house these days, too

Quote from TMcArthur :

Allow me to correct one point though; It was not until just a few days ago that we even considered any custom paints allowed in any of our events at all. The Premium-only requirement is not to get the extra buck (sure it doesnt hurt), but to limit the number of people doing this at all. And still, it isnt about allowing the "use" of custom paints as you can do that on your local end without R2P's support or authorization, it is allowing that member to be involved in a series that allows custom paints. Not only will those be rare, they would be the "professional" grade series which would require a premium membership anyway. Those custom cars would still not be allowed outside of that specific series.

thats no argument, your charging people to join a "professional league", when there are ALREADY professional leages, i dont see what YOU offer that people like Becky don't, all your doing is trying to make money

Quote from TMcArthur :

For a new sim-racer to come into our service and begin participating, the very LAST thing they should have to do is download Gigs-worth of car files, some of which will never be seen by that user. And what if that new member decides or forgets to download the latest carset? He can't join the servers at all! What kind of service makes their members jump through those kind of hoops just to ENJOY a sim-racer or two each week? Does the lack of a custom paint really prevent a good sim-race? Not in the slightest, I know this from years worth of not allowing custom paints in the majority of my online events.

You cant put custom cars in LFS, problem solved. They CAN Join the server, and anything they need is downloaded instantly, and i know lots of people who do 1 or 2 races a week.

And no, no skins does not hamper a race at all, but the fact you have the gall to charge for something that costs you NOTHING is the reason why i can never support what is a simple system of you raking in money for something we've had just for the cost of our licenses

Quote from TMcArthur :

I know you will ask "why not allow them?" and I will answer. Simple logistics, because we are not an "league" by the modern definition. R2P is a service to anyone and everyone, and the numbers of those "anyones" are growing very fast already (after only 5 days being open). We would LOVE to allow everyone (free users too) to have custom paints. But we are not talking about a group of some 20-odd members, we are talking thousands of users across multiple simulations with varying degrees of PC knowledge. Any car-packs would be out of date before a user could even finish downloading it with that amount of users.

thus we have auto-skin downloading in LFS - i really don't get what this offers LFS, the

Tim, you haven't heard what I have to say about the Methodists, yet

I'm not criticizing you personally, Tim. I'm on as steep a learning curve as you.. I'm just coming from the LFS end, while you're approaching from the "other" end.. whatever that is, but non-LFS anyway.

The question was posed, early on.. why aren't LFSers represented on the R2P/NASA collaborative effort, and despite the negativity that's obviously somewhat historic, I think the answer has largely been surmised. At least to me, anyway. R2P meets the shortfalls (skins being just one example) in the functionality in other race sims that just aren't ongoing issues in LFS.

LFS meets the organizational demands that the community makes of it, either through LFSWorld (you should really check out LFSWorld, Tim, it's excellent and quite inspiring) or through the LFS community's own efforts, being the vibrant and active community that it is.

I'd say R2P is a solid business model with huge potential, in the global scheme of all things racing sim.. but I have to concede that I don't see many points where it can meet a shortfall in the LFS arena because, by and large LFS bags and tags them all. It's clear that this can't be said for ALL sims, though, and because of that I'm absolutely sure you have a market

One thing that LFS doesn't (to my knowledge) have an afiliation to, at this time, is an organization like NASA, or FIA etc. I don't know what the future holds on that score, or even if it's an avenue that's worth pursuing.. but I intend to keep watching R2P, to see how things go on that score.

Sorry if you feel battered, Tim. It was never my intention to give you a rough time

Ok, now i cant quote you, but still!

What exactly is your reason for charging for the series (except you want to make money - thats a given), other leagues do it free, and how much would this cost?

"if you dont see what we have to offer over a standard "league", it is because you choose not to" - i take DEEP offence to this comment, this is just "your thick if you dont understand", its not that i dont CHOOSE to see what it offers, just that i CANT see it. Its a "proffesional" league, eh? So's the STCC - never had to pay for that (although i will be at some point)

"Race2Play offers a safe environment for both sim and real drivers to compete for enjoyment. There are live Stewards watching over each and every event ensuring the integrity of each participant and event. Very few "leagues" offer this."
STCC does, although its post race, as doing it live required 20 stewards, which is im practical (with only 23 connections!) - so your stewarding is lacking

"The driver and team stats are not league or even sim specific. They span your entire career, no matter the simulation or type of auto-racing you like and will span your "lifetime" of sim-racing at R2P. No other league offers this."
No, no league does. Do you know why? Because we have LFS World!

"as it is very clear that the 'voices' here in the LFS community do not care to have such a service" - i for one don't, you have neither explained WHY i want it, and i cant see a point when we have alternatives

See, this is the major problem in your argument Tim. We are not all stubborn and unobservant goons. We actually have spent time on your site, trying to find valid reasons we would need it, and we haven't found it. We asked you, but all you did is repeat what's already written and that we have already read.

I think the fact that any argument you come with we can say "but it's already being done for free elswewhere" shows why most of the 'professional' sim racers don't need R2P. In the end, you'll find it's aimed far more at casual racers than hardcore ones (and I'm talking about all sims, not only LFS)

Okay, guys, let's drop the "I can get it for free elsewhere" crap. There is a lot of virtual racing series that charge money in some form for participation, even in LFS. Normally, and that is pretty much a fact, they actually provide very nice quality services.

Let's approach the issue from a side where money does not play a role: can R2P provide the LFS with a new racing series that is worth participating in? Right now, that is not the case and Tim has answered the questions why that is. If they, at one point, do decide to provide us a LFS racing series, we can still think about the question "should I take my racing there?" That, however, is much less a question of money than of quality.

Do they have a good series concept?
What is their organizational standard?
How high is the standard of driving?
What quality drivers drive there?

Only if these questions are answered in a way that you can be satisfied with it, you should ask "do I want to spend money for that?"

Quote from Hoellsen :

Okay, guys, let's drop the "I can get it for free elsewhere" crap. There is a lot of virtual racing series that charge money in some form for participation, even in LFS.

yet, they don't advertise themselves as offering something to everyone.

maybe, tim forum could explain to you better why this "service" appears and why now. he seems to not like his past. can you find the forum?
when selfproclaimed kings of virtual authority come offering something based on a product that is a substandard copy of stuff we have in lfs for years and years, it's really hard to entice people who have gotten used to superior product and their services for free.
chargin for services lfs provides built in the exe is just a funny cherry on top of the cake.

- the ability to take your sim-racing experience and use it towards a NASA competition license.
Advantageous to Americans with an interest in both real and sim sport, but we're all agreed not a lot of use to use Europeans and the rest of the world.

- Race2Play is fully recognized by that sactioning body as a legitimate part of it's organization. I only know of one other that *claim* this, and that series has yet to host a single online event and still does not offer the first item I have listed.
The Federacion de'Internacional de'Automobiles may have something to say about that! Although only 1 event so far. The key here though is what that offers, primarily it's an appeals process - which in the case of an American sanctioning body puts the appeals court in America, which is actually a negative point for Europeans.

- Race2Play offers a location where you can race more then just LFS... at any time of the day, not just the set schedule of one "league" and that league-operators personal life schedule. If this doesnt appeal to you specificly, id surely does to many others in your community.
It sure does appeal to us! Which is why in LFS we have thousands of races every day. Pickup racing isn't possible in other sims, it is in LFS. And sure standards vary, but there are pro racing servers where you can just turn up and get a race against high quality licensed racers with a formal complaints procedure.

- Race2Play does not force a "licensing process" down your throat. We all know how to drive and do it properly, and the ones that do not are obvious and simply educated or removed if need be.
LFS doesn't do this either, but likewise, the alternative path is there on some servers.

- Race2Play offers a safe environment for both sim and real drivers to compete for enjoyment. There are live Stewards watching over each and every event ensuring the integrity of each participant and event. Very few "leagues" offer this.
Some of our leagues offer this, some dont, personally I stick to leagues that do - and of course my own league has live admins too. The truth is though that live admins keep the event organised but they dont improve the quality of the racing. Any admin who makes decisions live is liable to make the wrong decision, which is why almost all offences in my own league are dealt with in stewarding after the race, and not live. It also creates inconsistencies with those incidents that are seen, and those that are not, in any case stewarded events are only as good as the stewards.

- No other league offers this.
LFS World. OK it's not inter-sim, but lets be honest, LFS racers have a chosen sim and stick to it because - for the most part - there's very little that other sims can offer LFS racers. You really should put aside some time and try it

- You already "pay to play" in many different meanings of the word. Specifically many league participants "donate" to server funds.
Both true & false. I dont take donations for the STCC, and if I did they wouldn't make a dent in the costs tbh ! Most leagues dont have big expendiature, and so any money involved is typically very small and, on the whole, most LFS leagues do not charge anything or accept donations. STCC doesn't, and as leagues go i'm going to stick my thumb out that it probably has amongst the highest expenses of any league - but as a hobby, i'm happy to spend money on it.



I'm not trying to be argumentative Tim but I really think you are flogging a dead horse with this idea in this community. LFS is years ahead in terms of online play compared to other sims, and your solving problems that exist in other sims and assuming LFS falls into the same pitfalls.

It doesn't. LFS is a long way ahead, and that's why we all love it so much, and that's why you are flying against a tide here. It's a case of lack of market research.