if the above was towards me, the case was never taken seriously in the first place, you blatently ignored someone braking THREE rules within the space of about 10 seconds and never once said a word about it, you brushed the whole incident under the carpet rather than punishing someone braking rules. If rules were treated seriously then foul language used to describe the events wouldnt be required, wouldnt you say?
Chatting
Speeding/Jump Starting
Brake testing before and after green light given resulting in accidents behind them.
Your decision: Punish someone else!
What else am i supposed to think of that decision other than the fact that your basically screwed us over by passing blame onto someone who's reaction at the time was fine but the car infront's almost immediate *forced* reaction was to brake because the (IMO) numpty infront thinks "hey, green light means brake while typing 'wtfp.' " having jerked everyone else around with the speeding and sudden slowing down once already, and that braking to not hit said numpty meant our car had nowhere to go because it'd just started to move behind it. I mean really, that is the point of having rules if they're not to be followed? Its nothing more than an absolute abuse of power, you completely ignored the incident, made no effort to review the actions taken and punished with complete ignorance.
Same with the comedian driving for Ocrana joining the vote, why isnt that breaking the rules? Why? because its just not convenient. It really is that simple. Someone brakes rules which exist, nothing happens, and you wonder why people feel the need to use self-censored foul language ONCE ffs!?
"GT1 class is reserved for MoE contenders, MoE drivers can race in GT2 tho"
I gather by the wording that contenders are people trying to get into MoE and "drivers" are those whom allready drive in the MoE.
BTW, the line "As the league admin i reserver the right to refuse certain drivers/teams if i feal they are not suited for the league" was added in 2 nights ago so I don't see why any other rules wont be added in at Scoops pleasure. (Race Rules thread: Last edited by Scoop : 21/01/07 at 21:38)
I admit we made a mistake there, in not punishing Cyber Racing.
We did not made a mistake in punishing Mercury in that situation.
We took measures to prevent making mistakes during the start. It was a wakeup call for us.
Still I think you should not use foul language. Apart from the occasional f*ck etc., calling names a few days after something happened can hardly be defended as 'emotional'. Also, you want respect and care from other racers on track, please show some respect and care to people here on the forum.
Well, okay, then you maybe lose 10s by waiting. Still better than 30+s by a penalty. There is no situation ever that a car that is being lapped MUST move over in the middle of a corner and/or in the middle of a section of corners linked to each other. Respect the other car. Always.
Paul: how about you go out and run a few miles. Wouldn't that be a more reasonable way to vent your anger than repeating things from the past over and over again?
How about i save myself the time and effort and you stop pretending you didnt completely and seemingly purposely ignore 3 clean cut acts of rule braking within 2-3 seconds of the race start at Westhill? You've never commented on why that was allowed, you've just refused to comment on it, and you wonder why im hardly jumping for joy when you refuse to properly look at an incident and instead you shooting first and stuff asking any questions second.
Why am i expected to sit here and ignore you allowing people to break rules?
1&2) How can it have been a mistake, I mean you sure watched over the whole start incident in order to come to some decision where it was Bawbags fault for causing this accident (the one where the cars infront were braking seconds AFTER a green light!) and considering these events took place over only 10sec how do you not spot someone typing, how do you not spot someone braking twice, once because they were going 20% over the speed limit before the race, and then after the green flag.
Three acts of dangerous/careless driving (speeding, braking/brake testing, typing instead of paying attention) and 1 clear cut case of chatting during the race.
I've yet to see ANYONE admit to that as being a mistake, and that is why this ignoring of the incident winds me up. Your supposed to be watching the race, i know you cant be watching everyone, but a typed message should be an easy spot, and everything happening within the incident you felt was the single reason any incident ever occured makes the whole thing a sham. Thats what i dont get, your supposed to make sure everyone sticks to the rules to the best of your ability, and by missing this incident which is staring you in the face when supposedly coming to a decision to punish our driver, and then the subject is never mentioned again... why am i not entitled to feel angered?
Had you missed the events, and when questioned on them held you hands up and said you hadnt seen them, ignoring the fact you must have seen it in the replay at least once, then MAYBE it could have been forgiven as a complete accident, instead you pretended it didnt happen, and that just isnt fair.
3) Yes, and i can see plenty of time and effort was put into trying to avoid the same mistake happening again.
4) 'f*cked', screwed, cheated, whatever the terminology used, it wasnt going to be all that pretty because it was effectively what happened. Someone elses disregard to the people around him caused a chain reaction, one you've never (and possibly still havent) admitted as being the case. It wasnt the ultimate reason for the colision 2 cars back, but that car behind him didnt brake midway down the straight for no reason at all, he braked because the car infront of him decided to. Had nobody braked needlessly down the straight that incident wouldnt have happened, an equally bigger, smaller or much bigger incident may have happeneed further up, but we'll never know because someone chose to brake midway down the straight. That is stupid, careless driving, and it went ignored and unanswered by the people with any say in the matter.
Im not one to throw foul language around, but when i do its usually because i feel the situation requires it. You may have picked up a vibe from my posts my feelings towards this incident, and i felt this situation required it.
re: Ocrana chatting/voting, it didnt suprise me at all that it was effectively ignored, it was rule breaking, it wasnt an accident, it was fully intended by the driver and made for more of a distraction than a ; ) or sry etc
IMO its a clear cut incident, were it accidently pressing F8 instead of F9 to check tyre temps, then accidents are accidents and that can be understood, there was no mistake, only a poor attempt to be mister funny joining the ban vote.
Call it as a warning, but it seems hypocritical to punish anyone in future for purposely typing any message, right?
Debating issues might not fix them after the event, but ignoring them and pretending they never happened certainly doesnt make them go away.
We are not open on that matter (anymore). We admitted a mistake in missing the chat which we did because we thought the chatsounds that does come up when chatting came from the green flag chat. Simple as that.
We addressed the issue of non-consistent speeds during the start phase by developing and introducing n00bstart and finally we are standing to our judgement regarding the actual crash. Therefore, the 6h of Westhill are done, there will be no further investigations, evaluations, judgements whatsoever.
You can like that or not, but rest assured, any further mention of that matter by you will be ignored, as it IS a thing of the past now.
The same is true for the 24h of Westhill and that ban-vote. It was addressed by the warning and that is that. That warning also serves purpose to ensure such things do not happen again and if they do, we will take measures.
Besides, we do not ignore issues, we address them. The way we address them might not be the way you want them addressed but then that just is your personal problems and not ours. Besides of that the issue at hand and in this thread is the last LFS GT race which is not final yet as we have not yet made our official statement.
I don't think we are ignoring the incident at the start of the race in Westhill. The fact that we made a mistake there was the main reason for creating noobStarter and changing stuff in the tracker.
Altough I admit it might sound stupid, but yes, I did not notice the chat line until someone notified me about it after the race. The chat message came just at the same moment as the crash happened and the greenflag was 'chatted': that is probably the reason.
Now why would it be hypocritical to punish anyone for any chat message? We judged it as an unsportsman action, not as a chat line. That is why we gave the warning and not a DT for chatting. I would apreciate it if you accept some of our decisions and not try to see 'they are against us' in every decision we make.
Hoellsen:
Well ive never seen any admittance of missing chat, still shocking to find out that your paying so much attention to detail you dismiss a chat sound each and every time you watched over the replay to make a decision.
I can fully understand the reasoning behind refusing to comment on incidents, hell if i were in your shoes i wouldnt want to be explaining either!
Frank:
Ok, maybe a message goes unmissed, unmissed the first time and also each time you supposedly viewed a reply of the incident enough time to feel you were giving the correct person the correct punishment.
If thats the case and it does seem pretty bizarre, but if its the truth then theres not much that can be said about it. Which is why i cant understand why nobody held their hand up and said 'you know what, we never noticed it with everything else going on', i wouldnt have been happy, but its what happened. Im not unreasonable, but having never before explained when i've mentioned it, its been brushed under the carpet as far as im aware.
It still doesnt resolve my issues on why the person speeding and braking twice had his actions considered acceptable when they were THE catalyst for the events which caused the collision. IMO the collision items, blame isnt even fully on Bawbags actions, he only moved into a line where space was becoming available, fractions of seconds later that space wasnt available because the car was forced to brake. Had Bawbag gone right, he undoubtably would have been at very least alongside the lead car thanks to his 'lets brake down the midway down the straight' antics, but he didnt, he made a split second call that soon became a bad one. I dont agree on full blame on BB, but nothing i can do about that. However i just dont find it fair that someone irrisponsibly braking who caused others to brake too halfway down the start straight after a green light has been given is in any way shape or form acceptable driving at this level. I just dont understand how it can be accepted, my head cannot comprehend how thats not dangerous driving and asking for trouble. Surely im not unreasonable in saying this, right?
[edit] If you cant agree on my opinion of partial blame for the collision on BB's part, then fair enough, i can partly see your view i just also see a reaction made before someone elses which sealed his fate there and then. I just cant understand how nobody looked into the reasons for that car to brake. IMO the chain reaction of events was overlooked, thats what i cant understand. Blame was passed down to the final peice, nobody looked at where it began from what ive heard.[/edit]
In terms of 'hypocritical', well basically because there was intent to chat, unsporting conduct to me just sounds like a cosy get-out clause to avoid making the decision that you'd rather not make.
I know it would never be considered, but to me i cant see the harm in simple *specified* messages being allowed in game, once.
Is it really a distraction having someone type 'sry' or 'thx'?
These are basic communications made, typically hand gestures to the other person. Sometimes you accidently do something where you geniunely want to appologise for tapping the car infront. As i say, i cant see anyone actually allowing something like this, but it does seem a shame that no thanks or appology can be given for the things going on around us in races.
I just think the whole 'its over and done with' attitude is a poor way of dealing with issues. If someone asks for the reasoning behind something, why cant it be made public, if you truely believe in the decision made then it shouldnt be a problem, if it turns out something was missed, it should be owned up to and accepted by people. Making your actions unquestionable and beyond reasoning just seems a very wrong way to run a series.
It goes for any series, not singularly MoE, LFS GT or any other individual series or event, if the decision is final, then its final, but to expect people to accept a decision without any explanation on the reason behind it seems wrong. All thats being asked is for some clarity and some understanding behind the reasons these decisions are made. Sadly if someone thinks its a BS decisions then that'll still be the case, but if theres a geniune reason (ie as with the missed chatting) then its understood, disappointing, but understood.
Also to add on the 'hypocritical' comment, the 'cosy get-out' bit isnt intended as any insult, just that it feels like a loop-hole where you kinda accept something is wrong but by explaining it away as something else makes it a little easier.
Anyway, when someone types 'sorry' or something to that effect, they get punished. Punished for expressing regret of some sort, but never-the-less punished for chatting during the race. I cant see why someone genuinely wanting to pass on an appology can be considered worse than someone purposely pressing 1 to join in on a vote.
Both have the same issues of distracting the drivers, both are intentional actions, but one falls under the ruling of punishable chatting, the other considered as unsporting and is just a warning.
It just seems a little wrong and a shame really. I can see 'sorry' is equally no different to any other message, good, bad or otherwise, it just seems those actions shouldnt fall outside that for chatting.
Its only my view on things, i know the decision is made, it just seems like one of those injustices where someone gets away with something on a technicality. Im just expressing an opinion 'out loud'.
