@Gimpster - yes the 911 is fundamentally unstable but it does not need a wing to be controllable in the hands of a good driver

Quote from ajp71 :

How are the officers meant to know that a 911 spoiler operates at 75mph? Even if they do how can they guarantee the system is working.

Yeah; I wasn't really trying to suggest that cops keep their eyes peeled for Porsche wings. That was tongue-in-cheek. Even if the wings could only pop up at that speed.

AFAIK it would be easier (and more realistic) to drive the FZ50 if the devs implement the multilink suspension that modern Porsches uses.

I like it as it is (no wing) but would love to see it with a decent suspension model.

Personaly I could care less if it has a wing, the handeling of the car is not a problem for me as its more fun to drive with a little slip angle and the RE design makes that oh so easy. The car does feel like a tank, and I honestly don'y like the styling all that much, the nose hangs out too far infront of the front wheel and the thing just looks far too long for its given wheelbase.

As for wings on cars that serve a single puppose to extand the vehicles performance limit beyond its original designed limitations. Many forms of racing have come to rely on them though. On the average persormance street car they serve no usefull purpose as JTbo has eluded to. But since style is objective and often placed higher in the list then pure performance they are used to oversome some performance limitations imposed by styling choices.

0 lift is all that i need indeed, this can be achieved without wings in these performance figures rather well. Normal road car wings have effect of 0 to any direction, few designs in some cars have some function, like 50kg down force, but small wings wont have big effect and specially not those wings you normally see, made to please eye.

But I don't really like wings in race cars either, even those do increase lot of performance, I just don't like them

Quote from JTbo :

0 lift is all that i need indeed, this can be achieved without wings in these performance figures rather well.

youd be surprised how much just about any road car lifts

Quote from Shotglass :

youd be surprised how much just about any road car lifts

Yes, they do have lot of lift, but with proper design they would not, at least not at speeds that they are intended to, below 300kph usually.

Just for reference in this thread:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/

Go get edumacated.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/data.html

Compare Ferrari's wingless, spoilerless '99 360 Modena to Porsche's '00 911 to see that JTBo is well on the ball.

They took underside to even greater level in F430, it is really a masterpiece of aerodynamics and no wings.

So they need to make the air travel slower down the car than it goes over the car, and the air traveling slower has lower pressure and the pressure difference pushes the car down making downforce...or that's what I think I learnt yesterday browsing Wikipedia. But anyway, comparing a 911 and Ferrari doesn't make sense, they are designed for different uses. Although I must say that the lack of spoilers make Ferrari look very sleek and beautiful, the F1 style undertray doesn't work on daily basis. The 911 is a sport car you could use every day, Ferrari scratches it's nose on speedbumps...they are different cars for different uses.

Got to say I'm looking forward to see undertray model in LFS. It seems interesting

Personally i wouldnt mind seeing an "FZ Cup" version for the FZ50 and and new FZ additions, similar to the carrera cup. a slight upgrade to the FZ50 but not outrageous like the GTR version. More like a Sportsman class.

wing, diffuser and brakes would probably be the main upgrades, complimented by a rather spartan interior for reduced weight.

Quote from Blackout :

So they need to make the air travel slower down the car than it goes over the car

faster actually

but everything else you said about ride height is true which is why undertrays and extremely low driver compartments arent a viable option to get rid of lift on a road car
of course the 911s design with the rear converging into a pointy edge is the worst in terms of lift generated so what that car needs first and foremost isnt an undertray but a proper design

Thanks for correcting, rereading some stuff and that's how it must be then :P

Quote :

of course the 911s design with the rear converging into a pointy edge is the worst

But let's scrap that design anyway, it's not like decades of tradition really matter...
Ferrari should ditch their sound too, in exchange for more performance.

Quote from Shotglass :

of course the 911s design with the rear converging into a pointy edge is the worst in terms of lift generated so what that car needs first and foremost isnt an undertray but a proper design

Yeah, make it look like something else. Who cares, it's only the most beautiful sportscar around. And as Porsche has shown with the Cayenne (especially after the facelift), they're fully capable of designing cars that are just as indistinctive as a Kia/Hyundai/Daewoo.

Quote from Breizh :

Ferrari should ditch their sound too, in exchange for more performance.

But they don't need to as they can get performance and sound into same package

I really don't like from Ferrari cars, those looks like someone had step over some ball with giant foot and then cut away bit from sides. But I do admire how they can create plenty of downforce without wings. Actually that Ferrari 360 has too much of downforce for my liking.

So to get 0 lift we don't need F1 underside, just small design changes, some are possible to make even so that nobody don't notice them.

Quote from Linsen :

Who cares, it's only the most beautiful sportscar around.

i just isnt ... you can see its got a rubbish design as far as aero goes which makes its incredibly ugly

Quote from Shotglass :

i just isnt ... you can see its got a rubbish design as far as aero goes which makes its incredibly ugly

But you can't fully tell aerodynamics by just looking a car's shape, there are some older cars with straight lines that have surprisingly little amount of drag and some modern smooth cars that has relatively high drag.

Here is some basic stuff, what some may find interesting.

As life situations changed a bit I had to leave my intended plans to get my car to more aerodynamic without changing looks too much, underside + hood design were part of plan, however I did stop working with that idea completely as there is no point currently.

Maybe if LFS modeled lift our minds would change about a lot of things.

And Shotglass, it doesn't always work like that... there's still a deal of art involved in function-over-form design. The Suzuki Hayabusa is supposedly a very aerodynamic bike. IMO It's the ugliest thing on two wheels.

Quote from wark :

Maybe if LFS modeled lift our minds would change about a lot of things.

Erm... there is lift in LFS...

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Erm... there is lift in LFS...

Huh. Wherefore aint it in the forces view?

Quote from wark :

Huh. Wherefore aint it in the forces view?

It is cancelled out by the downforce.

Anyway, Porsche aren't going to change the 911's trademark design. I suppose the Carrera GT has undertray gadgets, so it's not like they're allergic to using it...
LFS could have a streamlined pop-up spoiler, and it could be made to be disabled as any other driving aids we have now, so it could be entirely optional to players..
Would it offset the balance we have in the LRF class?

It definitely wouldn't be fair to the other two cars (although it's debatable whether the RAC is supposed to be fixed or not) for the FZ to have both straight line speed advantage, and additional downforce grip in the bends.
The wing's effect would have to be pretty small to keep things even.
The RAC would be the slowest in the class by a bit.

Things like this could work really well if we had server side rules. Servers could be scripted to handicap each car/track combo individually.
Ballast and items like this could be allowed, or prohibited, or forced, to slow or speed up any car to match the rest of the class' speed.

It's so simple, I don't see why it isn't adopted..

Quote from wheel4hummer :

It is cancelled out by the downforce.

I can second that. What you see in the Forces View are Vectors, which are the Net force in a certain direction. 1G left and 2G's right would produce a single vector indicating 1G to the right, as that is the effective force in that direction. You see lateral and acceleration vectors as well because these come from different sources and are forces of thier own, in thier own direction.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

It is cancelled out by the downforce.

So, you're saying X pounds lift above and beyond downforce is not modelled?