I also like that flag idea, it would be pretty cool to see areas of the crowd around your national flag suddenly start cheering as you drove past them.
But it seems to me that in order to do it we'd need better crowd models, and that means either a rework of the 2D models (I'm sure it'd be possible to make them look moderately realistic) or 3D ones instead.

I've also seen games with horrible looped animations, and the key to not having that occur here is this - have it on a longer loop, or related to something happening on track. With extra sound effects, you could hear parts of the stadium shout "Oooooooh!" when there's a crash

Does it really matter though?
I mean when your driving if your concentrating you shouldn't even notice the track surroundings.
I have to say I've never noticed LFS being lifeless until i read this thread, but i guess i tend not to look at the sky and stuff when racing...

Quote from nikimere :

Does it really matter though?
I mean when your driving if your concentrating you shouldn't even notice the track surroundings.
I have to say I've never noticed LFS being lifeless until i read this thread, but i guess i tend not to look at the sky and stuff when racing...

Even I don't care too much from graphic and such bling, must say that I don't race Westhill almost at all for some reason and from this thread I have learned that it is because it is quite artificial place, when in there it feels like it would be ghost town after nuclear radiation has removed all signs of life or something.

I deffinitely think it needs some sound. For a while i was entertaining the idea of using HL to make a spectator mod where the spectators on the server could mill about, wave flag or use airhorns. I would haev seriously needed becky Roses and Kegety's help on that. The allignment of all the planets wouldnt have hurt either

I've never raced on the track or in a race car. I have driven down the road with my windows up though. I want to know what you expect to hear from all this ambience noise outside of your car with the windows rolled up and the engine running at 7-8-9000 rpm? Somehow I hardly doubt you would hear some of the stuff being suggested here.

People in the stands and graphic stuff? I'm not sure about that. Is there anyone in the stands at Kyoto? I have no idea as I don't notice when I'm concentrating on driving. Perhaps with animation you would notice as the ambience of people would be moving. Blackwood I do know there are people standing on the hills. Wasn't there a girl in underwear or a guy in a bikini or something many versions ago? LOL. But the fact is, when I'm racing at Blackwood, I don't see or notice those people. I'm concentrating on the track and on the race.

What I do notice in Blackwood is the buildings off in the distance, the flags around the track, the windmills around the track. Basically, the big objects. That is the charactor of Blackwood as is the desolate isolation feeling of Westhill. Westhill doesn't need this stuff as this is the charactor of Westhill, the desolate isolation.

Remember when patch U came out and there was talk of the new lightpoles at Aston? It took me several trips to Aston before I remembered about the lightpoles and had to specifically look to notice them. It was because I jumped on the track and was concentrating on the track and the race, not looking around at the objects and the backgrounds.

That's my take on it.

Quote from mrodgers :

I've never raced on the track or in a race car. I have driven down the road with my windows up though. I want to know what you expect to hear from all this ambience noise outside of your car with the windows rolled up and the engine running at 7-8-9000 rpm? Somehow I hardly doubt you would hear some of the stuff being suggested here.

Your right, you wouldn't hear anything from outside the car. You can hardly hear a car doing 100MPH revving 8k RPM beside you, let alone some people shouting from 50m - 100m away....

Quote from nikimere :

Your right, you wouldn't hear anything from outside the car. You can hardly hear a car doing 100MPH revving 8k RPM beside you, let alone some people shouting from 50m - 100m away....

But when you stop you will hear those sounds and when you are leaving from pits you can hear things far from track as your car is not revving to 8k rpm and there those small sounds create feeling you are going to real track, it is just an illusion, but strong one.

Quote from JTbo :

But when you stop you will hear those sounds and when you are leaving from pits you can hear things far from track as your car is not revving to 8k rpm and there those small sounds create feeling you are going to real track, it is just an illusion, but strong one.

Even driving from the pits at low RPM you still will not hear the crowd or air horns etc... Maybe when your stopped and have the engine turned off.

Quote from nikimere :

Even driving from the pits at low RPM you still will not hear the crowd or air horns etc... Maybe when your stopped and have the engine turned off.

Yes, because you have to remember, the majority of the cars are showroom stock (minus setup) road cars with all the interior panels and insulation as well as we are driving with the windows up. It would be different in stripped down interiors when we get them for GTR's, or in the open wheelers as well. But then again, when racing, I imagine you would have earplugs in to reduce noise levels, which would be very effective in cutting out off-track or the majority of ambient noises.

At every track day or motorsport event I've ever driven at, in any car from road going hatchbacks to single seaters, you can't hear anything like the crowd, PR system, airhorns (not that I've known airhorns to be used whilst I was on track).

In fact, once you've got earplugs, balaclava and a helmet on there's not a lot you CAN hear - everything becomes so peaceful, which is why a lot of drivers put their lids on and sit in the car to calm themselves and get in the right frame of mind - something that would be almost impossible if you could hear all the noise.

Once you're out on track you can hear your engine, the engines of those close to you (depends on silencing regs I suppose as to range and quantity), wind noise, track noise, and stones etc...

One day, when Scawen is bored for a week, then I'd like to see this ambience if only from a spectating point of view, but I won't and don't miss the lack of it one little bit.

Besides, once you've heard the ambient sound loop once, you don't WANT to hear it again!

definetly need some more sounds inside the car, i mean like when someone goes on to the gravel and all you hear are little stones hitting the floor of the car.

It's not high priority, and something you would only notice while a spectator. What could be done, is to make the spectators a bit more visible. The flags and such (been suggested before btw) could one way to do it. At the moment you can barely tell the difference between the stands and the spectators, look Aston for example. On the sound department, I do hope they won't get in to that garage-soundtrack thing like in most of the games. At the moment, there is no stupid tecno or fake mechanics "tuning" my car on the backround, and I enjoy it, the sweet silence broken only by the few cars going by every now and then

What would create more feeling imo, would be increasing the range you can hear the cars from. It was increased a while ago, which was great. But it's still not enough for the high end race cars, and the sound cuts off way too sharp. For example, you can hear the FZR about 400m away, which is a great distance, but I think that for a race car like that, it's could be almost doubled. Just imagine sitting in the pits, and listening a single car shifting down the back straight of Blackwood and then going for the loud pedal again. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Quote from nikimere :

Does it really matter though?
I mean when your driving if your concentrating you shouldn't even notice the track surroundings.

I tend to agree with that..I don't notice much when I'm racing. But when viewing a replay or movie it makes all the difference imo.

Quote from danowat :

Yeah, I agree with the lack of track ambeiance, LFS is still firmly set in Cartoon/Game world, and it does lack the grimey, real life look of something like GTR2 or GTL

The only thing I really enjoy about GTR2's graphics in terms of ambience is the glare when the sun starts going down. That's really cool, and well done IMO. Sometimes you need to squint IRL!

Quote from Blackout :

What would create more feeling imo, would be increasing the range you can hear the cars from. It was increased a while ago, which was great. But it's still not enough for the high end race cars, and the sound cuts off way too sharp.

IMO, we should hear mostly reverberations and muddy representations of the cars that are very far, and it should come closer to the true sound the closer they get. Also, the cutoff right now is quite binary.. Hear it, hear it, hear it... don't hear it. There is no fade which is odd, especially if the car goes in & out of the maximum range a few times in succession.

I've heard some drivers say they can actually hear the crowds cheering and air horns and the like, which I was suprised to hear of course.

When I said ambience, though, I did not mean sounds. I just mean the feel of the tracks visually. The character (or lack there of in LFS's case) and how it contributes to the immersion.

Mabye have audio aswell as visual.. Like sometimes u hear horns or screaming and shit.. that would be very very awesome... but doenst bother me with or without..

Quote from MAGGOT :

Westhill being the worst offender, I just found a general lack of ambient feel to the tracks.

the problem with westhil is at practically every point of the cirvuit the surrounding terrain rises just behind the fence ... therefore
1. the track looks like its been carved into the landscape rather than built on top of it ... most older tracks just follow the landscape so that ruins the illusion for westhil to look like an old track
2. there is no horizon and no trackside things to see att all ... all you get is a green wall of streched textures ... your basically driving through a green tunnel and for the most part having nothing but sky beyond the fence would work just as well or badly

Sounds like this in LFS would be enough to make me want to just sit in the pits and soak in the sights and sounds of a race.
http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/f1_sounds/brm_v16.mp3

Quote from tristancliffe :

Besides, once you've heard the ambient sound loop once, you don't WANT to hear it again!

and the same goes with animation loops

-1


btw. why do palm leafs not wave in the wind as trees do?

Here is 15MB clip from race track, image quality is not best and there certainly is not much of interesting to see, but that is kind of atmosphere I would like to hear in LFS too

Mostly old bimmers there, some Mercs and Hondas too.

I actually found TMN to be lifeless, too; it's all 'cut and paste' type tracks. They're all the same. Plus I can't stand the physics. I don't mind a little arcade sometimes, but that is rediculous.

Good discussion in this thread.

Audio ambience seems unrealistic as several have already said, although it would be great in a replay.

If there were ways to enrich the visual character of tracks without sacrificing frame rate, that would be nice too. But if I have to choose between losing 10 fps and having a few more people in the stands, well...


And Kev, where are you?

Quote from tristancliffe :

...you can't hear anything like the crowd, PR system, airhorns (not that I've known airhorns to be used whilst I was on track).

I think I see a great opportunity for you here.

The car sounds are more important imo, as someone said- the inside rattles and creaks, stones hitting from underneath, brake squeals, things that CSR already does a pretty good job of so far, but because it's a 3rd party thing, can only go so far. The only other stuff I'd like to hear is a faint environmental ambiance that fits with the atmosphere of each track. Did you guys ever play BFII? There was one city map (Karkand), which had the best ambiance, it made the city feel very spacious and open, and I swear you could almost hear people praying or something in the background, a very low murmur.

I agree with you Electrik Kar.
Allthough we really have no basis to criticize LFS yet because the developers are simply letting us play an unfinished version of the game... general ambience is definetly something that needs improving.

What is more fun to drive through, Nebraska or the Colorado Rockies? When driving through the very dramatic landscape of the Rocky's your adrenaline is literally pumping, the landscape is intense. Its that panoramic, ever changing scenery that is fascinating to the human eye. The things close by whirring by quickly, the far off mountain top or house on the hill seemingly standing perfectly still. These things simply add to the experience of racing. Even if its through your peripheral vision that you see the giant construction site zipping by to your left with the ever slow moving gargantuan crane towering over you, or the thousands of subtle marks of wear and imperfections on the track whizzing by beneath you, these things still add.. and some would say (rl racers likely) in essence ARE what the exhilaration of racing is. Some sections of the tracks in LFS resemble a slightly souped up Nebraska with some grandstands thrown in but again we cant logically criticize things till they are done.

Blackwood is a good example of interesting scenery which creates 'ambience' and track character. The long straight after the first turn simulates somewhat the feeling of approaching New York or some large downtown area with the roadside and overpass zooming by around you lightning fast while the buildings off in the distance are getting very steadily larger. This gives a much better sense of speed and is generally more STIMULATING, which is the definition of 'fun'. If interesting stimulus (which affects gameplay in no way) somehow detracts from a game for you then you are simply lying or are insane.

The main draw of this game is its physics however and we should be extremely grateful there is a developer brave enough to dedicate a games progress so largely on its physics as opposed to the more easy to sell graphical eye candy which we have been talking about here. These are just some ideas for improvement which im sure are blatantly obvious to the developers. However, it comes down to time and money. The developers are putting their heart and effort into nailing the 'feel' of real car racing. That is something that has never really been such a priority number one for any game I've ever known, and if it has been I dont think its been done this well.

Like a bunch of you have mentioned, I feel sound is the most engrossing thing for me in a racing game. I wont go into depth too much because all the better sounds they could include are rather obvious but for example when tearing down the Nurb' in GT4, my adrenaline gets going from the crescendoing intensity of all the various noises to the point where it seems everything is screaming and might explode. Then you get the same excitement from the hundreds of sounds intense braking induces on the car and road as you decrease speed rapidly for the corner ahead. It is like the harmony of many notes as opposed to the boring plucking of one or two strings.

Ambient crowd noises and other behavior could be cool but are for some reason very difficult for most developers to implement well. For instance it would be pretty cool if when you were cartwheeling down the front straight from a wreck you could hear a realistic roar suddenly coming from the crowd right next to you. However hearing the same damn continuously looped blow horn and crowd murmuring over and over every ten seconds really RUINS the sound experience and turns it into a major annoyance. Again, GT4 is a good example for this stupid mistake. The only time ive been really pumped up by a crowd done well in a game was on the Grand Canyon course hairpins in GT4 with the 3d crowd leaning over my hood practically, with them all shouting, jumping around and their heads realistically turning to follow me. I think to really make the crowd exciting it has to be believable that they are actually a crowd of people. In order to do that there needs to be a hell of a lot of polygons, animations and processing power and I really dont know if the LFS engine is up to that.