The title is a bit misleading but I couldn't think of better one I didn't find any thread where this had been discussed as the main topic. The hardcore mode discussions are more about the whole idea of making everything as real as it is properly possible (sp ).

Anyways, the "idea" is very simple: all driving aids should come with small performance penalty meaning that driving without any aids should be faster.

Driving with driving aid(s) on should be easier but to balance the field, it should also be slower. Imho, driving aids should never make you faster, not by making the car go faster or to make the consistancy better, or flawless. After all, driving aids are used to make the driving easier either because the lack of skill to operate all controls well or lack of proper controls. Both are very good reasons why (few) driving aids are needed.

To make things sensible, we must understand that most of LFS players use steering wheels with just 2 pedals (sorry, no statistic for this "fact"). This is also not about forcing people to upgrade to expensive equipment nor to make the use of such equipment the only way to be competitive. It is all about giving the reward for those who want to use the realistic controls, which are harder to use, instead of penalizing people who use such equipment. It is a valuable skill to be able to downshift and brake while changing gears (heel-and-toe) using 3 pedal systems as well as it is a valuable skill to flawlessly upshift to higher gears without damaging the engine, especially on the long runs. It is a valuable skill to be able to brake and drive at the limit and these car control skills should be based on actual driving skill instead of automatic aids.


Below are all the currently available driving aids, what they do and possible "cures" what I can think of to make them "more optional" :

Auto clutch:
This is the most commonly used driving aid. The gain with this is the fully automatic clutch control which basically means less controls to use, easier to drive. There is a problem without this aid though. A computer program can't tell if the actual control is analogue or digital, so penalizing the use of clutch button while not penalizing the use of clutch pedal is not an option, it is very easy to cheat there. Imho, a proper penalty for this this aid might be to totally remove the ability to operate the clutch when this aid is on.

Throttle blip on downshift:
One of the aids that actually make you faster and more consistant. This aid is mostly needed by drivers using mouse to steer. My suggestion would be to combine this aid with the throttle cut on upshift, read blow more

Throttle cut on upshift:
To be combined with throttle blip on downshift to more common throttle help aid. This aid will have a major effect once the engine damage gets more realistic. Especially on the long runs it is possible to maintain a fully working engine with this aid while getting all the power out from the engine at all times because overrevving is practically impossible. This aid makes driving more consistant and eliminates the effect of any throttle pedal errors on upshift with manual gearboc cars.
On downshifts it would be just like it is now, With upshifts it would cut the throttle totally or almost totally negating all the additional speed gained by keeping the throttle floored. Other option would be to totally remove this aid.

Brake help:
Should be removed or penalized more. We have a very simplistic and easily understandable brake torque setting in the setup sheet of every car which can be set up so that locking brakes shouldn't occur with button operated brakes. The brake help doesn't protect from flatspots so all it does is to limit the brakes to the edge of friction of the tires without the danger of locking them.

Transmission "help"
The use of real H-patten shifter costs more time because the the actual shift takes longer time than the sequental gear changing with paddles on steering wheel. I do not know if it is possible to program macros to make the paddles to work as H-pattern shifter (up/down shifting) but with cars that would have a gear stick (manual transmission) the H-pattern should be the faster way. With transmission help the actual gear change would take longer if paddles were used with car that has H-pattern gearbox. This would actually make the field quite balanced because it is possible to misshift and put wrong gear in with true H-pattern shifter. And H-pattern shifters are quite rare, even though G25 has made them a bit more popular.

And last but not least, whenever a driving aid is turned on or off, a visit to the pits should be requried for the change. Because, for example, it might be useful to have manual clutch on starts and then after start to turn the autoclutch aid back on; simply to get a better start in the beginning and getting rid of manual clutch for the rest of the race.


What do you think? Agree or disagree? I know it is a bit elitist subject but my intentions are purely to get a balanced playing field and to encourage the use of real alike controls in with our favourite sim

I have had this on my chest for quite some time, thanks for listening

Fair comment. Penalising Auto Clutch is risky since manual clutch can be faster outright with very little effort, mega fast shifting macros using an axis are easy to rig up (I did it recently to prove a point), so some kind of test to make sure that a proper pedal with full travel (rather than a button or wheel trigger of some kind) is truly being used is vital (imo). Maybe not easy to do, but penalising Auto Clutch as you suggest would encourage people to find those "tricks".

One Q I do have, though. If a mouse driver can be faster than a wheel user, without having to operate "real alike controls" as you put it, is that not, in your opinion, an aid? If it's faster it must be easier right? Should it be possible for a mouse driven XFG to hold a wr at Blackwood?
(Just questions, not an opinion ).

Quote from sinbad :

Fair comment. Penalising Auto Clutch is risky since manual clutch can be faster outright with very little effort, mega fast shifting macros using an axis are easy to rig up (I did it recently to prove a point), so some kind of test to make sure that a proper pedal with full travel (rather than a button or wheel trigger of some kind) is truly being used is vital (imo). Maybe not easy to do, but penalising Auto Clutch as you suggest would encourage people to find those "tricks".

I noticed when I entered the UXRL last season (UFR/XFR) it wasn't really any quicker to shift with manual clutch and a sequential stick (me and my DFP w. extra DF pedals) than it was using auto-clutch. Is it only the H-box cars that are quicker when using manual clutch?

Anyway... I agree (in the short term at least) with linking throttle blip to throttle cut - that would force people who want to flat-shift to have to blip the throttle themselves, which would go some way to offsetting the benefits of flat-shifting. Ultimately though, better engine damage should sort this out.

Aside from the above, drivers from poorer countries (who maybe can't afford an S2 license plus a wheel/pedals) and drivers with physical disabilities that pprevent them using a wheel/pedals in the traditional way make me not want to do anything drastic with balancing the driver aids. I like the fact that LFS is still accessible to anybody who wants to put in the effort.

Quote from sinbad :

One Q I do have, though. If a mouse driver can be faster than a wheel user, without having to operate "real alike controls" as you put it, is that not, in your opinion, an aid? If it's faster it must be easier right? Should it be possible for a mouse driven XFG to hold a wr at Blackwood?
(Just questions, not an opinion ).

Well, a mouse controlled car is yet to be invented, but as a way of controlling the car in LFS I basically see no harm in it. Of course if it was my decision only I would make the system more biased for the wheel users, but I don't really see the mouse driving as a driving aid that makes people faster, although the throttle and brake controls are quite a bit different than the pedals. But I still see that the keyboard throttle/brake control need some driving aid to be usable. One way of "supporting" the use of wheel might be to combine the throttle help with the keyboard throttle/brake adjustment option (=button control rate) so that the keyboard throttle/brake buttons are adjustable only with throttle help on.

Of course any bigger decisions would just make the use of mouse harder an not everybody wants to use a wheel. But as I see it, they really need that throttle/brake help to make it possible to use control in more "analogue" way.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I noticed when I entered the UXRL last season (UFR/XFR) it wasn't really any quicker to shift with manual clutch and a sequential stick (me and my DFP w. extra DF pedals) than it was using auto-clutch. Is it only the H-box cars that are quicker when using manual clutch?

Yes, I think so. Iirc all the cars have some kind of minimum time value for shift times and it is based on the type of transmission the car has. The BF1 has the fastest shifts and the UF1 the slowest, or so I'd like to think

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Anyway... I agree (in the short term at least) with linking throttle blip to throttle cut - that would force people who want to flat-shift to have to blip the throttle themselves, which would go some way to offsetting the benefits of flat-shifting. Ultimately though, better engine damage should sort this out.

The engine damage is my main concern with the throttle cut on upshift -aid. If and when the engine damage comes back more people will start using the upshift throttle cut because it is possible to flatshift with it without getting any engine damage. As I see it, the situation with driving aids will only get worse if engine damage was implemented with the current driving aids

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Aside from the above, drivers from poorer countries (who maybe can't afford an S2 license plus a wheel/pedals) and drivers with physical disabilities that pprevent them using a wheel/pedals in the traditional way make me not want to do anything drastic with balancing the driver aids. I like the fact that LFS is still accessible to anybody who wants to put in the effort.

I am a bit sure whether this is true. A person living in a poor country still has to be wealthy enough to have a pc capable of runing LFS. Compared to that, a cheap steering wheel isn't reallty that expensive. And there is always the possibility of using the mouse. What I'm suggesting is to make the situation more equal to everyone, so that everyone could use the controls he likes/can without getting a severe perfomance gain or loss. The most obvious thing I'd like to change is to make sure that driving aids can't be used to gain speed and no one who doesn't want to use them doesn't need to

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Aside from the above, drivers from poorer countries (who maybe can't afford an S2 license plus a wheel/pedals) and drivers with physical disabilities that pprevent them using a wheel/pedals in the traditional way make me not want to do anything drastic with balancing the driver aids.

That is a reason to leave the situation as it is.

It could - possibly - be possible to get the seqqie option working as an H Gate.

Banning manual clutch use with autoclutch is plain stupid in W10, bearing in mind the start. FFS, 6-9 of the LFS cars would have seqqies (GTRs, FOX, BF1, FO8 - maybe MRT and U/XFR).

Throttle cutting should be forced ON until engine damage is done, in which case it can be returned to the current situation.

Not everyone has a G25, not everyone wants to buy a G25, not everyone can buy a G25 and not everyone (the disabilites point) can use a G25.

Totally agree with all points Hyperactive was making, Papyrus for example and other serious Simulations have always had that balancing, any driving Aid you use is easier BUT slower than driving without driving Aids.

It's just about fairness and common sense in a Simulation.

And may I quote from the LFS Website:

Quote :

LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving. It is therefore highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse, a wheel is what you use in a real car, so a wheel should be used in a serious racing simulator.

Given, that LFS is a serious Racing Simulator, it should not reward driving helps with faster lap times.

The argument about "not everyone has three pedals" is as valid as saying: Do not upgrade the Graphics because not everyone can afford a new Graphiccard, how much does a whole PC cost? How much does Internet and Software cost? You can buy a second set of Pedals for 10 Euros, and a good H-Shifter for 50 Euros, if you are serious about Sim Racing that shouldnt be a problem for anyone who can already afford a PC, Internet and Software.

And its not like the G25 is the only option if you want three pedals and a shifter. There are much cheaper Options and much better Options available. And the balancing should not be about seconds but about tenths of a second during a lap. I'm sure some Gamer is going to quote this now

George, looking at your avatar, I think you have issues determining the difference between "serious" about sim-racing and "obsessive"...

Also please read the above points about racers with physical disabilities.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

George, looking at your avatar, I think you have issues determining the difference between "serious" about sim-racing and "obsessive"...

LMAO !!!!!

Point taken!

I also would like to see use of the driving aids penalized more. A driver using aids needs to be no faster, and preferably slower, than someone who is doing everything manually.

I'd like to see shifts take longer when using auto clutch. Turning on auto-blip should increase shift times even further (only slightly, but enough to offset the benefit). Maybe even something where shifting too quickly causes a mis-shift into neutral? Missing a shift or releasing the clutch too soon is quite easy with an H-shifter. Something should be done to even things out.

Auto-cut is harder to address. If you force auto-cut on for people using auto-clutch, you slow them down a bit, at least. But, in addition to slowing them down you also prevent possible engine damage that they would sustain from leaving the throttle to the floor during shifts. Seems like you either have to not allow auto-cut at all (it's not necessary, no matter what controller you are using), or you have to make it quite a bit less effective and/or slower since it reduces the risks so much. This will be doubly true once engine damage is made more realistic.

In my opinion all aids, but auto-clutch could be removed. Blipping and cutting the throttle are not dependant on your hardware, so anyone can do without them when they practice.
Auto-clutch should be so slow that you could do faster shifts with manual clutch, but it shouldn't be too slow either so that people with lesser hardware won't get hindered too much.