TC? What's that?

He's tired of hearing Tristan Cliffe all the time I guess

I feel a bit ignored...

Quote from Blackout :

Nice video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InY2T8uUzw

or maybe opposite :haha:

speaking of sounds - how to bring back previous hayabusish mrt :mr-t: sound? :duck:




Dave, you did a great job except those 4: bf1, fzr, ra, mrt

Yes, Tristan hanging from the rear spoiler. And even if we didn't use Tristan hanging there all the time, the sound still shouldn't make your ears explode once he starts to scream.

Quote from AndRand :

Dave, you did a great job except those 4: bf1, fzr, ra, mrt

Instead of RA you mean FZ5 right? The RA sounds sweet! Sweet I tell you!

Another mix for you guys to judge.

The effect creates some nice discords that the LFS sound system currently isn't capable of. Obviously there are flaws in the procedure, but with that material Scawen should know what to do to give the LFS sound engine similar traits.

In those files you can nicely hear how the 'scream' in engine sounds seems to mostly be caused by discords. This thread had really improved my understanding of engine sounds.

Vain

I find after a few laps my throat gets sore making the traction control noise, so I politely hit the driver on the helmet (with a stick) to make him turn it off for a bit - at least until I've had a drink.

Quote from Vain :

You can also nicely hear how the real engine sound 'flitters', while the LFS sound is very monotoneous. This might have something to do with the oscillation from point 1.

Not in my soundpack... or at least WAY less (see LX4/6, XRT, ...)
http://www.zt-racing.com/downl ... dscript/oritestsounds.zip

I spent an hour trying to make the BF1 sound half decent. Man. Not good. LFS just has issues with revs that high. The only way to get it to sound remotely realistic at high revs is to turn the exhaust volume so high it clips all the time, and that's just... bad. Maybe LFS could, like uh, simulate some kind of distortion?

I have always thought LFS sounded good in terms of how the sounds should sound but the actual sounds them selves are bad. That didn't bother me too much because car sounds ingames almost always sound bad in some aspect. GTR2 had good sounds in the cockpit but as you changed to the tv camera view shit just sucked
In assisting the developers in improving the game sound we should prob compile a bullet list of areas to improve. i doubt hes going to want to walk through a 10 page thread in hopes of finding someone useful tips.

i think the problem with LFS sound is its not dynamic enough so to speak.
i mean if find that below 4500-5000Rpm the car sounds nice but after that just dosent really sound like engines revving that high 8500Rpm.*
at first i thought well maybe its because i am desensitized to this car reeving high( never really drive the car like a normal car) so i drove around the track normally(feels like it has a stage 54 clutch could be my clutch pedal) went back to driving fast and still dosen't sound like its in the high RPMS.

Too loud at low RPMS
then i noticed the car is actually too loud for the rpms its actually at in the lower range. if u listen to a real car drive by the engine is hardly audible(in the cruising RPM range) so is the exhaust(this is from the external view) the tires actually make more noise.

Loud IDLE
i noticed the idle is ridiculously loud i parked the XRT at the 50M marker at blackwood straight and i could still hear the car from 250M marker. also did the test at the start line on blackwood and i could hear the car at the pit entrance lane cones.

Power vs loudness
was curious to see if power played a role in how much noise the car produced so i lined a XRt up on the BLack wood straight took off did a replay and listened from the same spot the car left and noted when i could not hear the car anymore. i redid the test with the hatch and in terms of loudness they were pretty much the same. sound cut out at the same points. went back to an old lfs ver and tried the same test with a 7.5liter V8 (500Hp) same thing.

Attenuation
LFS dosent do this. basically as a sound source gets further away the higher frequencies of that sound are absorbed by air and don't travel as far as the lower frequencies. so stuff like gear wine should not be audible after a certain distance. another example of this is a helicopter u can hear the sound the blades make from further distances than you can hear the high pitched noised from the jet engine.

3D Sound would be nice
back Fires
would rather see this run off of some simulation rather than down shift and hearing a pop. rather have the sound and the size of the backfire dynamic. (love the sound of 4 or 5 cars going into a corner and all that random popping )
---
I don't think LFS sound is actually going to get better without hardware acceleration. i would suggest scawen look at OpenAL and EAX5 as 3d sound and attenuation are easier to implement using them. i can't really comment of all the benefits in terms of sound quality in using those because the documention for EAX5 is under NDA. You have to register with creative as a developer.

lala - I'm pretty sure LFS cuts off sounds above a certain distance from the camera anyway, so that explains one set of your test results.

Quote from wark :

Maybe LFS could, like uh, simulate some kind of distortion?

like i said ... ditching the samples and going for true noise as excitation should add a whole bunch of distortions which sound better and are relatively realistic

Patch improvements were a huge step in the right direction thanks Davews
my suggestions:

When you crash into something it should sound like a skid, crunch & bang. Like a real accident. Not like a biscuit tin sliding across a car park.

Those horrible tin ey tapping nioses when you rub bumpers or doorhandles have got to go. Totally unrealistic imo.

So big crunch, wallop, bang sounds, curb rumbles, & race track atmosphere sounds (cars blasting down a straight in distance, cars roaring past the pits & gravel sound when you slide off into the kitty litter) even a pnumatic air gun (when pitting) & crowd noise might be an idea.

example of crash sounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_6AyjDIqZA
just try to ignore limpbizkit & listen to all those 5's skiding & crashing
the cheers from the spectators says it all.

Quote from Shotglass :

thats something a lot further down the line though whereas my suggestion can be done as a relatively quick hack job
going along the same trail of though you went what would help a lot is physical modeling of the pipes ... if im not mistaken currently the simulation is basically jsut a bunch of low passes stacked on top of each other ... if you were to add some delay between those with the possibility for waves to travel both ways things should change dramatically for the better

one thing which i think is way off is that the transmission whine doesnt change at all with the gear settings and final drive

That's not how the sound system works as far as I know. It puts the pulse sample through an exhaust simulation.

Quote from Shotglass :

like i said ... ditching the samples and going for true noise as excitation should add a whole bunch of distortions which sound better and are relatively realistic

I guess you are thinking along the lines of these, which would not be too much work for Scawen to implement into the sound system (I would guess). I think there is potential here, they aren't perfect though, have a listen anyway.

Edit: Actually they are pretty crap, but I STILL think there is potential.

Some more.

Quote from DaveWS :

That's not how the sound system works as far as I know. It puts the pulse sample through an exhaust simulation.

which to my knowledge is a very crude system that stacks a few low passes on top of each other and thats it ... at least thats what it sounds like

Quote :

I guess you are thinking along the lines of these, which would not be too much work for Scawen to implement into the sound system (I would guess). I think there is potential here, they aren't perfect though, have a listen anyway.

how exactly did you create these ?

he should be able to implement my suggestion pretty quicky ... at least if he can figure out how to get a working pulse sample from noise

I just had a listen...

I'm not generally very critical, but I have to say that whatever that is sounds like the current sounds with some strange, VERY VERY artificial noise of some sort over top of it. It's much worse than what we have IMO.

You know I love your work, but whatever that was - I hope I never hear it again

I still love you though

Edit: In the attempt to say something constructive, I would note that at VERY high revs, it doesn't sound TOO bad. But at mid/low revs it's quite cacauphonous indeed. Whatever it is might bring a hint of the rawness needed at very high revs, but it ruins the rest of the rev range big time.

Edit2: I don't think we are going to get anywhere without Scawen doing... the reverse of what he's doing now with the exhaust side: induction noise needs to be simulated, not just exhaust noise. Induction is what makes up most of the vehicles engine sound when you're at high revs.... The mechanical clutter starts to overpower everything at some point. Botching the exhaust noise to compensate probably isn't going to be successful IMO.

You've been doing a lot of "stock car" work lately....

As far as I know the V8 in LFS is only flat plane crank... there needs to be a cross-plane crank firing order V8 to get the right sound, although whatever you're using sounds very nice.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I just had a listen...

I'm not generally very critical, but I have to say that whatever that is sounds like the current sounds with some strange, VERY VERY artificial noise of some sort over top of it. It's much worse than what we have IMO.

You know I love your work, but whatever that was - I hope I never hear it again

I still love you though

Edit: In the attempt to say something constructive, I would note that at VERY high revs, it doesn't sound TOO bad. But at mid/low revs it's quite cacauphonous indeed. Whatever it is might bring a hint of the rawness needed at very high revs, but it ruins the rest of the rev range big time.

Edit2: I don't think we are going to get anywhere without Scawen doing... the reverse of what he's doing now with the exhaust side: induction noise needs to be simulated, not just exhaust noise. Induction is what makes up most of the vehicles engine sound when you're at high revs.... The mechanical clutter starts to overpower everything at some point. Botching the exhaust noise to compensate probably isn't going to be successful IMO.

You've been doing a lot of "stock car" work lately....

As far as I know the V8 in LFS is only flat plane crank... there needs to be a cross-plane crank firing order V8 to get the right sound, although whatever you're using sounds very nice.

Well, it was simply a quick attempt at fiddling with some sound dynamics editing (which can change the whole character of the sound, but its normally some form of distortion). I wouldn't expect it to sound good straight away, but I think there could be potential. I know there is a hissing effect, ignore that , it can be fixed.

I agree with you that this is a "fake" way of producing sound with more character, however I would think for Scawen to come up with a model of something else is a) going to take a while, and b) is going to require more CPU. However I agree it is the way to go eventually.

The stock car, yes... well I just think it sounds great that's all. As far as I know we WON'T be having one in LFS any time soon...

Edit: I don't mind criticism. If no one criticised we wouldn't get anywhere would we.

Quote from Shotglass :

which to my knowledge is a very crude system that stacks a few low passes on top of each other and thats it ... at least thats what it sounds like

Could be, although I wouldn't think so, based on how the sample affects the resulting sound in peculiar ways...

Quote from Shotglass :

how exactly did you create these ?

he should be able to implement my suggestion pretty quicky ... at least if he can figure out how to get a working pulse sample from noise

Basically I just edited the sound dynamics in an audio editor, to see what would come of it, and it requires very little processing power.

Do you think you could elaborate a little? Because I thought you were after a similar effect to what I used to produce those clips. Some of the engine pulse samples (such as the RAC) I made from white noise (heavily edited of course) btw.

Quote from DaveWS :

I know there is a hissing effect, ignore that , it can be fixed.

What about that tickety tacking sound?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

What about that tickety tacking sound?

Erm, care to elaborate? I only posted these to see if there was potential, doing it this way. IMO it adds much more character and liveliness to the sound. With hours of fiddling I would think it could sound good. Its kind of a controlled distortion at specific volumes (making it different to clipping), but like I said could sound much more convincing..

Edit: My mistake was allowing too much high frequency distortion

Edit 2: This is going nowhere. I should let it rest until we have some more patches out of the way.

Quote from DaveWS :

Erm, care to elaborate? I only posted these to see if there was potential, doing it this way. IMO it adds much more character and liveliness to the sound. With hours of fiddling I would think it could sound good. Its kind of a controlled distortion at specific volumes (making it different to clipping), but like I said could sound much more convincing..

Edit: My mistake was allowing too much high frequency distortion

Elaborate? Hm... There is a sound that goes tickety tack.

It's much more prominent off throttle, than on throttle. It's really audible in the FZ50 sound. All of the sounds sound good ON the throttle at very high revs. So, I suspect your are right, and that with hours of fiddling you could probably work some magic. Look what you did with the regular sounds!

If what you did somehow faded in based on torque/power output, and went away off the throttle, that might help. I suspect you already know what to do though.

edit: Why do you say it's going nowhere?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Elaborate? Hm... There is a sound that goes tickety tack.

It's much more prominent off throttle, than on throttle. It's really audible in the FZ50 sound. All of the sounds sound good ON the throttle at very high revs. So, I suspect your are right, and that with hours of fiddling you could probably work some magic. Look what you did with the regular sounds!

If what you did somehow faded in based on torque/power output, and went away off the throttle, that might help. I suspect you already know what to do though.

edit: Why do you say it's going nowhere?

I get what you are describing now, that's the high frequency distortion. With more fiddling I could have the effect applied to certain volume levels and above (which would hopefully reduce the off throttle noise). The problem is most of what I'm doing is trial and error (and I really don't have enough time at the moment). I'm not as much as an expert as some of you think I am, I've learnt / am learning what I can though. But really, I need more of an understanding of how the sound system actually works. Anyway enough rambling, I have a huge amount of coursework due for Monday.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

...

btw i will come back to you with a post about distortion in the ear when i find the time just in case you forgot ... if dave doesnt mind we could continue round here

Quote from DaveWS :

Do you think you could elaborate a little? Because I thought you were after a similar effect to what I used to produce those clips. Some of the engine pulse samples (such as the RAC) I made from white noise (heavily edited of course) btw.

what i mean is not using one single sample for the entire time lfs is running but using a noise generator the output of which gets filtered to create the pulse "sample"
with the engine pulse sample essentially being noisy this might or might not add some depth to the engine sounds (either way it should be more realistic as no firing of the engine sounds exactly the same irl like it does in lfs)