Hey there, do you think it would be a good idea for cars with wings to have side force (i dont know if thats what its called)

Because the side of the wings have the plate things which could be rotated (dont know what there called)
(check the pictures)

So tracks like, Aston club in the Fox which is mainly right handers you would be able to run lower downforce wilst being stable still and keep the grip.

Or the bf1 on oval etc, many of possibilitys could happen if there was sideforce.

Thanks for reading,

(check the pictures)

I've never heard of being able to rotate the endplates on any series or car.

But they DO allow for different sizes of endplates on the wings. They usually help control oversteer or understeer, and make the car point in the right direction... kind of like rudders. That is at least what I know from the old CART days, where they had many different sizes to use. They help control drag too.

Yea I too have never heard of rotating the end plates of the wings either, I don't even think its really safe to do it to be honest, it would probably rip the whole thing off, and in the end all it would do is just cause more tire wear due to counter steering.

Tweak basically laid it out for you, they are just used for stabilizing the vehicle (besides holding up the wings).

Would help for ovals tho as the nascar Car of tomorrows have rotateable end plates

Do they? Sure doesn't look like they do, I can't imagine how a contraption would work safely anyway.

Like I said though, if you were to do that, you would just be rotating the rear axle, meaning the inside axle would want to turn in, so once you get into the turn you have to actually countersteer what the rear wants to do, and then getting on the straight you have to do it, thus you would wear out tires extremely quickly.

From what I remember of my brief exposure to stock car racing sims, you have the wheel pointed toward the wall on the straights anyway.

Quote from Forbin :

From what I remember of my brief exposure to stock car racing sims, you have the wheel pointed toward the wall on the straights anyway.

Thats to do with the camber of the tyres which takes you left all the time



And btw, iv seen a video where racers can have different end plates with a curv'ed flick on it to create side force so the car doesnt get as loose on the nascar, car of tomorrow

Allso if you was to point the two end plates inwards/outwards it would act like toe angle which could allso be a good boost.
But with a bonus that you dont have to do out and in and that you can aim them both ether left and right aswell as out or in.

So you could have the inside one pulling you a tiny bit more than the outside etc.

Imo i think it could be a great way of extra setup options.

Guess its up to what you think tho

Endplates are sometimes curved or have this so called 'flick' because they are designed to reduce drag from the actual wings that create disturbances in the vortices they leave behind.

I don't know why you think that moving the endplates will give you some kind of extra downforce.

Some endplates (or parts of them) are curved or twisted so that they can reduce airflow impacting the leading end of your tires. F1 adopted this a while ago, that is why you see the BF1 with these designs (they either direct airflow to the inside for the radiators, or to the outside.

There really is no point in having to rotate the endplates, you don't 'point' them hoping it will act like toe-in/out, you've got it all wrong.

First the undertray needs to be properly modelled, not the stupid endplates.

I think your understanding of aerodynamics is a little off there, Jimmy.

Shaped endplates is entirely to reduce drag. (And in some cases, to hold up the wings) Tweaker hit the nail on the head.

Dirt track oval cars have "side" plates. There's a wing, but the side plates are almost as large and are angled quite a bit. They're fixed though, not movable relative to the car.

is he getting confused whereby in some series (particulalry oval racing) the front left and fronf right wing planes can be setup individuallytherefore in a pit stop you can adjust only one of them rather than just one measurement for the entire front wing??

Quote from Jimmy_Lemon :

Thats to do with the camber of the tyres which takes you left all the time

Nope, stagger

Quote from tristancliffe :

Nope, stagger

FRom indycar.com

Stagger Right-front and/or right-rear tire is larger in diameter than left-side tires in order to improve turning ability on ovals.

Camber: Degree to which right-side tires lean in toward the car (from the top of the tire) and the left-side tires lean out. A useful tool to gain grip in corners by maximizing the amount of tire-to-track contact.

Yup. Well done.

Just confirms that stagger is what causes cars to want to turn whilst on the straights. Camber is to do with the wheel movement in roll and bump.

My F3 car runs camber, but stagger would be a disadvantage. All cars run camber. Your car runs camber.

Sorry to moan, but I don't need people trying, in their infinite stupidity, trying to tell me that the 'wants to turn left' effect is caused by camber. It's stagger. 6 year old motor sport fans know that. Grrrrrrr

That was a good laugh. :chairfall

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yup. Well done.

Just confirms that stagger is what causes cars to want to turn whilst on the straights. Camber is to do with the wheel movement in roll and bump.

My F3 car runs camber, but stagger would be a disadvantage. All cars run camber. Your car runs camber.

Sorry to moan, but I don't need people trying, in their infinite stupidity, trying to tell me that the 'wants to turn left' effect is caused by camber. It's stagger. 6 year old motor sport fans know that. Grrrrrrr

slightly o/t maybe maybe not

you can change the effective 'stagger' of a car by reducing the tyre pressures on one side..not sure if this works in LFS or whether it's caused by the lower pressure tyre having more grip as it is less inflated, has a larger contact patc hand thus also has a smaller diameter thus recreating stagger?

Can anyone comment on this effect in LFS??

I have never heard of the endplates being angled to create a side force. What you're basically asking for is an anchor on one side of the car caused by the drag, the only way I can see it ending up is in a nasty high speed aerodynamics related crash. Effectively you're asking for something which does the complete opposite of a high speed stabilising fin.

He's asking for airplane type rudders to create sideforce, which would be added to the tyre sideforce to enable higher cornering speeds.

These rudders would of course also create drag. Now let's assume the drag vs force efficiency for the rudder is the same as the efficiency of the normal wings. If you think about it you will see that, as long as the tyre has a friction coefficient larger than 1, it would be better to add aerodynamic downforce than sideforce.

But since these kind of movable aerodynamic devices are illegal in every racing series I know there's no point in adding them to LFS although it would be interesting.

The sideforce he's speaking of is Nascar\ovals related, where your in a corner turning for a prolonged period of time, it does nothing for a gtr type car.

The term has been loosely used by the nascar commentators, all it does is help the cars rear end not slip so much aerodynamically while in a corner, thats it, the effects arent that big.

Turning speed does not equal cornering speed... you can turn any car 90 degrees at any speed; doesn't mean your direction of travel will change.

All that this would do is rob your rear tires of grip without any lateral acceleration. Very productive

P.S. movable aerodynamic devices were banned to prevent the use of airbrakes (à la McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron) and wings only popping up for corners. (And some have argued "fan cars.")

Quote from wark :

T
All that this would do is rob your rear tires of grip without any lateral acceleration. Very productive

No. The side forces add, don't substract.

Quote from J.B. :

No. The side forces add, don't substract.

Understeer from hell?

Quote from RMachucaA :

The term has been loosely used by the nascar commentators, all it does is help the cars rear end not slip so much aerodynamically while in a corner, thats it, the effects arent that big.

I know some of the NASCAR announcers are retired NASCAR drivers, but they don't seem to know their arses from a hole in the ground sometimes. They like to make up words and fake forces in an effort to explain how things work to those that have no idea what the hell is going on; including the announcers themselves.

That's just what it seems like to me sometimes. Maybe they're just enthusiastic..

Can someone get some kind of proof that these aerodynamic devices actually do that, to me it just seems a lethal and completely unadvantageous device. Anyone who's ever taxied an aircraft will know that really a rudder is a pretty diabolical method of trying to control a vehicle. Of course it's not exactly the same but I suspect you'd find horrible sudden oversteer and the cars balance would be even worse effected when drafting.

Quote from wark :

Understeer from hell?

It's a force going in a sideways direction. Nothing more, nothing less. Tyres do the same thing. And yes, if you just take a car and add a rear rudder the balance will shift to understeer just as it would if you put stickier tyres on the rear.

EDIT: after giving it some more thought I could imagine that there might be issues in terms of control and stability as ajp71 hinted. So, as I said, it would be an interesting thing to test.