Quote from Gil07 :

I always thought it was the overtaker's responsibility to avoid contact, not the defender...

It's both driver's responsibility. A defender can't do whatever he likes once the attacking car has a sufficient overlap.

The classic example is T1 proper at SO Classic/long/town, the tight left. Someone brakes late down the inside, has full overlap, turns in and begins to accelerate through as he is entitled to do so, then as he gets out to the wall, flat out, he gets spun to the right and hits the wall hard. The (nearly impossible to see) previously defending car had attempted to hang on all the way round the outside despite being behind and got pinched against the wall as a result. What would be the reaction if the attacking car had been the one to try and drive around the outside and spun the defender into the wall?

Well, if the driver has sufficient overlap, you can assume he has the right to the corner, easy.

perfect example sinbad, im sure its happened to us all many times! the defending car in that situation is usually the one blaming and trying to ban the attacker aswell!!!

yeah thats another thing. the difference in grip offline and marbles will change things up a bit. Actually i thought this was a gentlemen's club the thing is, we have the ablility to not run someone off the road even when pushing in lfs.

Quote from Alan Dove :

here's a good example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lciFt99iU6c

massa has no where to go. Alonso knew the consequences of his actions. Do you seriously suggest Massa should slow his car down, sacrifice his line, and allow Alonso to take his line.....

he didn't RAM Alonso, but physics took there natural course

Nope, Alonso didn't leave enough room, so that's his fault, but that's not the situation we're discussing here...

Fact of the matter is: If someone manages to stay on your outside (I'm talking about side-by-side) for the whole turn (at which point you made a mistake yourself), it's not OK to just take the exit as if he wasn't there and thus push him onto the grass...

Quote from Gabkicks :

yeah thats another thing. the difference in grip offline and marbles will change things up a bit. Actually i thought this was a gentlemen's club the thing is, we have the ablility to not run someone off the road even when pushing in lfs.

Yes, as I said, I don't ever agree with intentionally running people into walls or onto grass, or into tyres. Regardless of whether you're technically entitled to it's not much fun, I tend to race in LFS with the philosophy that if I can avoid an accident, whoever's fault it might be, then I might as well. I agree 100% with the lower grip offline thing too, it's a good point.

Quote from Gil07 :

Well, if the driver has sufficient overlap, you can assume he has the right to the corner, easy.

no he has the right to the apex if you manage to keep side by side to him you have the right to dictate his exit

and ayrton is probably the worst one to listen to in these things being a guy who thinks pushing others and cutting the track is a ok

Quote from Shotglass :

no he has the right to the apex if you manage to keep side by side to him you have the right to dictate his exit

and ayrton is probably the worst one to listen to in these things being a guy who thinks pushing others and cutting the track is a ok

That I didn't know, thanks.

besides whats that whole commitment and physics argument supposed to be about ? its an utter load of bs no matter how late you brake if you dont step on the gas pedal fully at the apex there will easily be enough room for another car and if that car was still on your outside at the apex he has every right to stay there

MyBoss,

Your last vid you posted is just silly! Instead of enjoying some good, competitive racing, Brocky should just run Richards in to the fence and kept his position.

Quote from Shotglass :

no he has the right to the apex if you manage to keep side by side to him you have the right to dictate his exit

and ayrton is probably the worst one to listen to in these things being a guy who thinks pushing others and cutting the track is a ok

up yours!!

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

up yours!!

Unfortunately most karters seem to act like 5 year olds when they start racing. What you can get away with in a kart you absolutely cannot in a real car and on basic safety grounds before sportsmanship you cannot deliberately and knowingly push another car off, the car on the outside has plenty of right to be there on the corner exit, you have the inside line he has the outside line, you can't take it from him unless you get in front of him so that you can safely pull across.

Quote from ajp71 :

the car on the outside has plenty of right to be there on the corner exit, you have the inside line he has the outside line, you can't take it from him unless you get in front of him so that you can safely pull across.

Well said, spot on and amen to that.

Quote from MyBoss :

My question really is this: Do the general person in here think that this is right, that if you are so unlucky to be on the outside you have to expect to be blown off the track?

Not sure what you mean by `unlucky` as surely you dictate which part of track your car is on?

The driver who is trying to hang on around the outside has no option but to yield to the driver on the inside. If the driver on the outside finds themselves running out of room and end up off the track well the blame lies with them. I've seen it happen plenty of times in all forms of motorsport ranging from karts to Formula One and never has the driver on the inside been punished from what I can remember.

The reason it isn't as commonly noticed in real life motorsport? Because most drivers in the real world have a better idea of race craft than your average LFS player. In my first year racing my Dad drilled it into my head that when another driver has a significant overlap don't try fight him around the outside as you'll be the first one off the road. Give the place up, slot in behind and attack back when you can. That's the best thing you can do in that sort of situation, otherwise all your doing is leaving the door wide open and putting a load of risk into the driver on the inside leaving room they aren't obliged to leave...

Quote from ajp71 :

Unfortunately most karters seem to act like 5 year olds when they start racing. What you can get away with in a kart you absolutely cannot in a real car and on basic safety grounds before sportsmanship you cannot deliberately and knowingly push another car off, the car on the outside has plenty of right to be there on the corner exit, you have the inside line he has the outside line, you can't take it from him unless you get in front of him so that you can safely pull across.

Agreed

The car on the outside has the right to be there whether you like it or not. Just because you and/or others do it in a SS or even just a kart doesn't mean you can do it in a car. In GT racing or even in Nascar you don't see people deliberately run his competitor off because he is running the higher line. In that F1 video above, Massa could of gave room. Saying that it would of caused a pile up means that F1 doesn't have drivers with a high enough standard to give room and avoid contact. I know in F1 you have to make quick decisions, but saying running someone off the track (even though it was a quick decision) is right is just wrong. A true racer is one that gives room and earns his/her win, not one that wins by taking another competitor out.

Quote from keiran :

Not sure what you mean by `unlucky` as surely you dictate which part of track your car is on?



The driver who is trying to hang on around the outside has no option but to yield to the driver on the inside. If the driver on the outside finds themselves running out of room and end up off the track well the blame lies with them. I've seen it happen plenty of times in all forms of motorsport ranging from karts to Formula One and never has the driver on the inside been punished from what I can remember.



The reason it isn't as commonly noticed in real life motorsport? Because most drivers in the real world have a better idea of race craft than your average LFS player. In my first year racing my Dad drilled it into my head that when another driver has a significant overlap don't try fight him around the outside as you'll be the first one off the road. Give the place up, slot in behind and attack back when you can. That's the best thing you can do in that sort of situation, otherwise all your doing is leaving the door wide open and putting a load of risk into the driver on the inside leaving room they aren't obliged to leave...

And your first year in racing was in what type of vehicle? Exactly

I think this is the classic example of what we're talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4 (includes funny Montoya interview).

Basically there are no rules or guidelines about whether what MS did is fair or not and if you ask 10 (car) racing drivers about this move 5 will say it's ok and 5 will say it's not. With karters it would probably be more like 9 from 10 and with sim racers more like 1 from 10.

All stats pulled from you know where.

Go to a different server. Problem solved.

but right now, there is grip. so there's no excuse for running someone off the road if you know they are on the outside. the xrt is very different from f1 cars like i said before. jpm took a risk and got the shit end of the stick . schumi might have been able to leave room but who knows.

Why are you karters so convinced that your opinion is the only correct one? Watch this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msW1HjBAeSw

Why didn't JPM have KR off in the stadium entry corner? Maybe because his idea of fair racing is different to yours and MS'?

@ J.B. : examples of passing in F1 has nothing to do with the original topic, which is an XFR. So if someone is going to show us the "unfair" passing like posted originally, I think it should be a video of a full body car.

Ok

First
If you have are overtakeing on the inside entry to the corner then you have the APEX. You need to be along side the leading car at the entry other wise what ever happens is your fault. You also need to brake harder as you do NOT have a proper line and cannot carry proper corner speed.

Second
If you are overtaken like this at the entry to the corner most people should concede the position and try and attack comming out of the corner by getting greater corner speed out of the corner as you have a better racing line once you concede.

Third
If the person on the outside does not concede and travels with you side by side through the corner you MUST give him room to do so as he has right of way on the exit and you MUST keep your car in close to the inside greatly slowing you down. (you must check your mirrors to see if your apponent is beside or behind, a nice note is if he is not in your rear view mirror he did not conceede and is beside you so you cannot vear the car to the out side of the corner on exit)

F1 is a horrible example of passing due to the extreme amount of downforce, the way it plays havoc with the car behind and forceing only a single racing line with very little room for error. Making passing very rare among the sport.

V8 Super Cars In Australia is also a bad example due to this and the added lack of race craft in the drivers. As aer the V8 Lites and V8 Utes.

DTM racing is a good example, British Touring Car racing (though there seems to be ALOT of contact in the series) Leman (sorry for spelling) Endurance racing is a great example when a Prototype is passing a slower car.

A1GP shows a great mix of these passing attempts but due to lack of experience they usually end up in a CRASH like in here.

Radical Raceing World Series. (unknown proper name)

In Australia there are a nuimber of racing series that show proper raceing.
Aussie Legends Series (Mock bodys on tiny frames running with Large Bike engines.)
Thunder Sport Series (Many different makes or different power with alot of fast track day specific style cars, encluding Radical's)
Cams Production Car Series (Multiple cars or various levels or power and handling, set up in 3X reverse Grids alowing slower cars to set off first, then the medium cars and they are all chased down by the BIGGER engined cars so at the end anyone can win)
Kingswood Raceing is perfect (now under different name)

Motor Bike Raceing.

:hippy: :dnfnoob: :hippy:

way to go pmd, throw in another made-up law there. Why on earth would the rules be different for open wheelers? Please don't mention nascar, we're talking about circuit racing here, where rules of overtaking are pretty standard aross the board.

and y2k, your rules are spot on but why on earth do you think all of these amatuer series have better race craft than super v8's? And then say BTTC is A-Ok ?

V8's get a lot of contact simply because there are so many large cars trying to squeeze into tiny corners. The same rules apply, however.

I threw out open wheelers because that is NOT what the topic is about. Also a stock car (Nascar) on a road course is still considered a full body car on a circuit track.

I've always gone on the rule that the outside car leaves room at the apex and the inside leaves room at the exit. That is close clean racing on LFS.

Though, with this discussion, which has gone a bit of a different way than most discussions on this topic goes, I never thought of the issue of grip on the real track off the line compared to the same grip levels in LFS across the entire track.

Thus, until LFS simulates decreased grip off the line, the "leave room at apex/leave room at exit" stands for good clean racing.