Both. Being able to advertise within the broadcast of the STCC was essential in winning the sponsorship & prizes from Logitech. Not being able to offer the same thing in public racing is, at the moment, the biggest stumbling block for winning server hardware sponsorship for public racing.
[edit] Prizes for public racing would only be possible if we were able to get enough sponsorship (i.e. demand a high enough price) to have an excess after costs had been accounted for.
Sam, you say you go out of your way to avoid general advertisements on web sites, in e-mail etc.. why do you think _you_ peddling that trash is any different from any other marketer or spammer on the planet? They're only interested in one thing, which you seem to be too, as everyone who disagrees with you is "silly" or just "scaremongering" or "afraid".
What's so different between you wanting to advertise and some other company that you may well block in your web browser? Why do you think your ads must be seen by others but it's ok for you to avoid other peoples?
You sound like a typical marketer.. a droid, no idea about what people really want.. the _only_ important thing is your next lead so you can get paid.
To me, it sounds like you want to be something you can't afford to be and want someone to pick up the tab for your servers.. but no doubt you'll deny it
One thing I'm asking myself is, what is so outrageous about billboards that change once in a while? Which could even be turned off.
Have you lost all trust in Scawen? I mean, seeing any implementation of ad support is already very unlikely, yet alone one you cannot turn off. All these horror visions of ads anywhere else than billboards I read about are just plain paranoia and IMO quite ridiculous. I bet you're remembering back to the countless times Scavier have sold themselves out to some big (evil) corporation, no? You know, because money is their main concern regarding LFS.
I just don't like ads, period.. I spend far too many hours a day having to deal with unwanted marketing gumph. I change channels on TV when ads appear.. I go out of my way to avoid as much as possible.. I certainly don't want forced advertising in a game which I'd be playing to try and relax after a day's work of dealing with crap.
I can change every ad in the game to a plain white texture if I wanted to.. force these server side and I no longer have that option and I'm forced to see whatever ads the server thinks I want to see. I _never_ by anything from an advert I've seen and certainly don't plan to start now.
Being able to turn off ads defeats the purpose and companies just won't buy it, thus making the whole thing moot, which works for me.. not sure it'd work for the sponsors.
Nothing to do with Scawen et al at all. What the hell gave you that idea? Where did I once mention Scawen or any part of the dev team or LFS in relation to them? It's Sam who's trying to line his pockets, not Scawen.
Well, then they won't buy it. I don't think Scawen cares about them. He would (if at all) implement it for the server hosts, because they want the ability to load their ads over the current static ones. Scawen wouldn't sell it to the marketing companies, but implement a feature for his customers.
It has everything to do with Scawen, because he is the one who'd implement it and it depends on him on how invasive these ads could get. As of now, these custom ads are absolutely non invasive because they don't exist, and at most they'd be as invasive as you'd allow them to be via the options. An implementation not allowing to turn them off would be completely against everything the devs stand for and would alienate quite a large chunk of the community. With your fears of those advertising horror scenarios you were basically implying that Scawen allowed such an implementation in the first place, which is why I brought him up.
I'm sure this was mentioned months ago and didn't get a very positive response, but I have no problem with it.
We already have trackside adverts (Intel, ESL, Freno, RSC, Takai, Cromo, Castrol, Tico, etc) and the usable tyre brands, so what difference would a few more banners make? I don't know if those brands paid the guys to add them or what the deal was, but if it adds to the LFS fund then all the better.
As long as they don't use EA's Battlefield 2142 method of "targeted" advertising (or "spyware" as I call it) with rented space I think we'll be fine. But I can't see Scawen going for that anyway.
I don't know if the ads currently in LFS are there with permission of those companies or not... but if they are... then there's a reason the devs chose those specific ones to add. Intel is the first one to come to mind. We know why it's there. Why would the devs want to allow the ads to be changed if they've added them for a specific reason like that?
lfs can get major sponsorship because if you look at the Irish racing seen for example , its nothing special compared to America or the u.k But company's are throwing money at anyone with talent or anyone that will advertise thee product , lfs might not be as big as other games you can name but the potential of this game as everyones seen in the passed is far surpasses any of them other game because of are great development team.
all we need now is a rich company to spot this great opportunity and the team should have the fund to get this game bigger and better
This is not about sponsoring LFS but the server hosts, and besides that, more money doesn't mean LFS will develop any faster or suddenly get 10 new features.
I think you're missing the point dude.. it's not about what Scawen cares about per-se, it's the fact that some individual who happens to run a server wants to be able to show ads to anyone who connects to line his pockets, like most marketers.
I know LFS isn't all about money.. that's patently obvious when you look at the Intel / Sauber deal with them not agreeing to all requirements.. I'm pretty sure they lost out to an extent on that deal due to it, but it shows their morals.
I haven't even thought about Scawen selling to anyone.. I really don't know where you're getting that idea from.. the most I expect from Scawen in this respect would be the ability to set billboard or whatever materials to be able to be affected dynamically, much like car skins, nothing more, nothing less, least of all selling anything to anyone.
Again you're referring to options. You work in IT, not trying to sound sarcastic, but are you oblivious to day-to-day marketing online? How many companies are going to want to pay Sam to advertise on his servers knowing that 80% (just a figure) of people connecting will have dynamic ads disabled? Would you pay a hefty sum for advertising knowing that? I certainly wouldn't.
Sam's not talking about options either, or rather, the only option is not to connect to the servers he wants to peddle this trash on.
It still has nothing to do with Scawen.. I don't care _how_ the ads may be served, I don't want to see them, period.. be it intrusive or otherwise... hence I say it has nothing to do with him.. you're assuming I care how they're served not if
At the end of the day having ads on billboards in LFS can only result in one thing, a better experience for the client from well maintained hosts.
Having the option to 'turn it off' is plain ignorant, host need an income to provide a good service. Ads are a part of everyday life(when you go to a nascar event do you turn your nose up at all the advertisement; the people who pay for events to give you the customer a day out racing?) and will only add to the realism of the sim imo.
Ads bringing money to hosts and creating jobs within the LFS community is the ONLY way the development of this sim can ever stand on two legs in the future and after s3 final, unless in two years time Scawen needs to sell out to whoever and then we'll have a locked untouchable copyrighted final result
+1 for financial support for hosts, if you don't get funding this way to maintain the service you provide, LFS will need to start chopping off its limbs and selling its organs.
@Ian: I see your point, but it seems you're more protesting against the idea of advertising in principle, while I try to look at the outcomes and implementations that I assume* are actually realistically possible (taking the stance of Scavier into account).
You're right, I don't know the ins and outs of day to day marketing, but I don't give a rats ass either . Again you're giving the example of companies paying a hefty sum for advertising that might not even reach the customer. So what? Then they won't buy, or not pay a hefty sum but a much smaller one. Selling whatever method of advertising possible in LFS is job of the server hosts who want to get the money for it - if the "most intrusive" advertising Scawen would implement is not good enough for them, then why should we care.
What could happen?
They don't buy ads
Good for us - Bad/neutral for the server host
They buy ads
Good for us (as we can turn them off) / Good for the server host
Scawen deems the whole thing not important/viable enough and thus leaves it out completely (which is IMO most likely, btw)
No change whatsoever
Yes, I don't like advertising, but I don't see what is so scary about the implementations that could actually happen. The real point however is, we haven't heard a word from Scawen about this, so all this discussing and arguing is just wild and silly theorycrafting from both sides. I on my part will just shut up about that now
* Granted, my argument is based on how I perceive the devs, but I hope I'm not that far off. Of course I could be wrong.
That pretty much nails it.. it's not what method may be used, I simply don't like advertising / commercialism. Obviously race tracks etc in the real world are plastered with them these days unfortunately and it would look strange seeing LFS with nothing but corrugated steel, so the textures we have in the game have been designed in a way to compliment it and give it some realistic atmosphere so to speak.
There's a _big_ difference between having some artwork representing a real life company logo and blatant advertising however
I don't know too much about _marketing_ per-se, but have worked my nuts off fighting to keep myself and others as free of their trash as possible. It costs me ~2 hours every morning, 7 days a week dealing with unwanted marketing crap, I guess that doesn't help me welcome to this idea.
Ahh but you're assuming an option again to turn them on and off. I'm assuming there would be no option as it wouldn't be a worthwhile venture then for companies to invest. I only really mentioned that most would disable them after you mentioned having it optional previously. If it's optional, I wouldn't be "complaining" about it as I'd simply disable it, but I'm ssuming it'd be like ads plastered all over web sites where it's not optional, unless you go a specific route to rectify things yourself (noscript / null-routing etc). I just don't see how marketing can ever be profitable if it becomes optional for the end user to see it or not hence I never really considered that an option
Also, think about some of the top named drivers in LFS that are known by many in and possibly outside of LFS with nice team / personal skins with real life company logos on them for "realism", how would a company paying for a texture on a billboard perhaps feel about their competitors being on well known cars on various servers, all for free! Knowing some of the playground politics that does surround the marketing game, this wouldn't be "cool".
It's not scary.. I don't like fish (eating it) either, but I'm not scared of fish It's all about principle and the way this world is becoming more and more advert crazy.. maybe it's just me, but not so sure
So this has nothing to do with changing billboards in LFS and everything to do with your daily life, then. Why are you posting this nonsense?
We've already covered the option to turn off the banners like you can turn off auto skin downloads.
Ian, if you're going to take the time to post, at least do us all the courtesy of reading the thread you're posting in.
So you're not using the auto skin download feature either, right? If you're that against advertising, I'm assuming this is the case, because this would be logical and support your argument. Do you also refuse to race at Aston because of the real life advertising banners there? Do you delete the ATL and Castrol DDS files, in order to avoid in-your-face billboard advertising in LFS? Seriously, Ian, if you don't, you have no argument.
Yeah, and nothing about the topic of this thread. Do us the decency of being contextually reasoned. I mean REALLY.
I don't think you could lift that further out of context without enlisting the help of NASSA.
Who's talking about flashing banners and zingy promos? We're talking about replacing billboards with billboard-style advertising.
It's totally bizarre to me, to see people so obsessively anti-advertising and so utterly paranoid that they think that servers would degrade the LFS experience with stupid advertising. It's a seriously weird starting point.
Yeah, fair comment... but the only response I have is: "I don't need advertising.". I would far and away prefer to have some real-life tracks, but I don't really need that either. I have GPL for that.
Yep, I'm not asking to ADD new advertising space, I'm just asking for the option to change *some/all* of the existing fictional ones in their current/existing places.
Yep, you don't need advertising. You've spent £24 and you have the run of lots of free servers at absolutely no cost to you. It's a great situation to be in, and what I'm proposing wouldn't change that.
As for real tracks/cars, that's an entirely separate topic and doesn't need addressing in this thread.
This isn't an issue of "you needing" or "I needing" advertising. It's an issue of those who want and can get the advertising sponsorship for their servers.
I probably wouldn't mind UKCT or any one elses servers having these ad bilboards and downloading them like skins when joining their servers. As long as it stopped at simple in game immersive graphics such as billboards and the various fictional signage that is already in LFS for immersion. It's when the advertising becomes intrusive is where I begin to care.
Two problems I see with in-game advertising. The first one is, like was said earlier, they aren't going to want to just stick some ads in the game. They are going to want data. Data on who, what, when, where, how many times the ad is being seen.
The second problem is they would want their ads to be seen and to be easily noticed. Ads at a race track isn't for the drivers. It is for the fans to see and the television viewers. I don't know about you, but when racing LFS, I do not notice the ad billboards, or I should say, don't notice what is on those billboards. They are setup to be an immersive part of the race track. You would see ad boards at the real track, so they must be there for the immersion in a racing sim. But they are not easily viewable, you just know they are there. The marketing focus of the advertising is going to be the LFS drivers, not the viewing audience. Thus they are going to want the boards to stand out and be noticed by the targeting audience, us the drivers. This leaves the immersion of having boards at the side of the track out of our perspective view and they are going to want it in our direct view.
In general about advertising, I'm with Ian H. I hate advertising as I do think I already know what McDonald's is (not that I'd ever eat there again...) and I surely am not watching TV and exclaiming, "Wow! McDonald's, I have to try that!" Advertising is a huge waste of money where they spend millions and millions of dollars and pass that on to us the consumer. As for our situation here about advertising within LFS, even with the ad base sticking with a racing sim or computer gaming based agenda, I already know who Logitech is. I already know who Intel or AMD is, or ATI and nVidia. There simply is no need to target me or you with wasted money spent on advertising and costing the consumers of said products. In their eyes though, it makes no difference how much it costs them. Because it doesn't cost them anything. We are the ones paying for all the advertising through the rising cost of consumer goods.
LFS World includes trackside adverts as a skin upload option.
Server hosts can specify uploaded skins for 2 or 3 of the existing billboard textures around each LFS track
To reduce overall usage and keep the billboards being used for their intended purposes (advertising) and not "Becky woz ere" banners, server hosts pay a token fee to Scawen to upload/make use of this feature.
ALTERNATIVE
Advertisements are placed via the insim button interface.
Take your pick.
Of course when it comes to the specific case of the servers i'm involved with then we'll always take the route of not annoying our racers, or doing things which are not in the spirit of LFS - because we love LFS too.
Just be aware that advertising is possible in LFS right now, we can make pop ups and flashing banners. What we cant do right now is make them sympathetic to the actual game by making use of the advertising that is already in LFS by actually leasing it out.
Would you rather have a realistic billboard ad, or a flashing pop up on your screen?
If LFS is to grow and sim racing is to become a sport in its own right then at some point commercial interests will have to be taken into consideration, I think its better that its done sympathetically to the game than to force advertisements onto the user in a manner that they wont like.
It was mentioned earlier, and I forgot to address it because I was busy addressing some paranoid nonsense by someone, I forget now. Anyway, I think a token fee paid to LFSW by server ops and files hosted at LFSW is absolutely reasonable. You can either regard it as abuse protection, as it is with skins, or you can regard it as revenue sharing. Either way, the net result would be the same and would, I'm quite sure, set many nervous minds at rest. I'm all in favour of this being the route.
I already have realistic looking billboards.. how will they be any more realistic just because the paint on them has been pumped from your server rather than my local HDD? I can also paint mine just how I like with _any_ real life company logos, why would it be different just because you get paid to do it?
What you really mean is you (ie: this whole operation, not you personally) don't gain cash.
"in a manner they won't like"... that for me is anything you want to pump through to me as an advert, so the best way not to annoy people who feel the same about advertising as I do is pretty simple
If this is just for your servers, then I really don't care as it'll never affect me, but will leave the LFS community if it becomes forced in-game by default (not that anyone will care, but if enough felt similar, it could be detrimental).. if there's an option, I'll disable it, but that seems somewhat pointless considering what you'd be trying to achieve.
Face it, this UKCT operation or whatever it's called today isn't ESL and very unlikely to be
If you're strapped for cash, either quit offering public services or charge people to enter your league, that'd be just as realistic. Funny how so many others can offer something to the public without having to ask for sponsorship or donations.. I've been doing it for years so have plenty of others.
Provided it is limited to 3 per environment, it would be acceptable - but what about people on slower connections? Some people (mrodgers until very recently) can use LFS with dialup. Server identity - or as you call them "Becky woz ere banners" might be wanted by some servers.
By the way, Ian, someone drew my attention to the LFS skins you've created and posted over time. You're against real-product advertising in LFS? Really? No, REALLY?
Let me just laugh my ass off a bit more, before I say anything further.
[edit] Okay, done laughing now. Ian, I'm going to have a lot of difficulty perceiving any measure of credence in anything you post from here on. Your argument is wholly without merit. You cannot take the stance you do on this topic, with your skinning history. Your posts are wholly irrelevent, here.
Could be 3, could be 4. Could be 2. Makes very little difference, since there would be (as previously mentioned in this thread) the option to disable auto-downloading of billboards.
Why would the devs want to allow the ads to be changed if they've added them for a specific reason like that? 
