Yeah but I wont be able to go 200km/h on 80 degree tires at a 45 degree angle for metres and metres on end in a constant drift, if it messes up my turning..
There goes another 80% of users.
Hell, I don't have to spend 200+ dollars on this game to have fun, now do I ?
While I imagine simplistic radiator damage would be pretty easy to add, I also think that more complex suspension damage would be *relatively* easy as well. LFS already has a built in g-meter. It would seem to be pretty straight forward to say something along the lines of "if g-force > X, then <component> intersecting <track or object> = broken".
Just think, for the cost of a G25, which allows you to play day in and day out for years, you wouldn't even be able to buy a single set of race tires which would only last a couple of races, at best. Consider it an investment.
If i'm not mistaken (which i'm tired and could possible be) wouldn't it be the delta accelleration, the jerk force (in the vertical axis)that causes the damage to the suspension?
Except for cases like lateral axis, where damage could be intensified?
You know, thinking about all this "it will make a difference", I really don't think it will make a difference with some of the mentality you see on the servers as LFS is now.
Race start... 20 car pileup in T1... race voted restarted... 20 car pile up in T1... race voted restarted... 20 car pile up in T1... race voted restarted... 20 car pile up in T1... etc etc etc etc...
You all have seen this scenario time and time again. Really, what makes you think that better damage is going to fix it. Instead, they will wait for the next race, then the pileups will begin again. Or the race will still be continuously restarted.
I'm still all for more realistic damage though, with the change in racers' attitudes or not.
Whenever you have a body that is in motion, that suddenly comes to a stop, it undergoes tremendous g-forces from the sudden stop (this is why hard drives are rated for a specific g-force). LFS already has a g-meter built in, so I would assume that the physics engine can calculate the forces that a car is under. So, when a car is going 45 mph and hits a wall, LFS will know that it's experiencing X number of g's (say, 120 or so). If a car hits, say, 12g's, you pretty much know that it hit something solid. If it breaks 12g's and the left rear wheel comes in contact with a wall at the exact same time, you pretty much know the rear axle is toast. If the car breaks 12g's and the nose comes in contact with another car, you can pretty much write off the radiator. These are just numbers off the top of my head, but you get the idea.
I think this kind of basic calculation is do-able and would be a HUGE improvement to the current damage system.
I don't think damage is a big deal. On real race tracks you won't often find kerbs on those you can actually damage your suspension and it can take quite a beating anyway. For example Hamilton clipped the barriers during the monaco grand prix more than once. Also overrevving engines and wearing out clutches aren't issues in most modern race cars.
And it's not like suspension damage is missing in LFS anyway. I've broken my suspension on a kerb in a longer league race at least once.
It would have to be a bit more complex than that. Its very easy to say 'that was a massive impact, the radiator is definitely broken', but with for example a moderate impact, to one side of the nose, how do you work it out then so people's radiators aren't unfairly and unrealistically smashed? The easy part is when an event definitely happens, but ther trick part is working out the turning point of exactly when it does/doesn't happen.
I can't wait for LFS's damage to get more realistic .
But this comment from Woz would be absolutley superb, has there ever been any mention from scavier about this?
So? If it is possible in real life, it is possible in LFS. All you need is practice, practice and more practice. Are you afraid of practice?
Any cheap wheel will do. They all offer analog throttle/brake and steering, which is all you really need.
Unfortunately nothing is ever as simple as it first seems - particularly in programming !
I imagine that you are right to suggest that calculating the ammount of damage to apply would be fairly straightforward, thats only part of the problem though.. the real difficulty comes when trying to respond to that damage !
We know that LFS has a simplified suspension model. Can the current model support having individual suspension components carrying variable amounts and types(bending, twisting, total failure) of damage (other than what is already implemented) - I doubt it, because if it did, then I imagine it would already have been implemented. So my guess is that before more detailed suspension damage can be implemented, the suspension model will have to be updated to be more comprehensive and more 'realistic'. Unfortunately for each component you expand to include these extra damage variables, you will have to use a more complex and cpu intensive set of physics calculations...
I'm sure Scawen will come up with a good compromise between increased realism and cpu efficiency when he does decide to update the suspension.
(Its similar to collision detection issues - the difficult part is not detecting a collision, but generating a believable response to that collision.)
Try doing it in real life and then cry me a river.
If you're taking mouse users "needs" all the time into account doesn't that destroy the whole idea of making a simulation? You can get a DFP for under 100 dollars I think.
One way to look at it but still doesn't make much sense.
Is it less sensitive? Rev Limiters were added in S2 meaning you can't now popcorn your engine by just flat-shifting/revving in neutral. Being a clumsy G25 owner I would say it seems to respond in the same way as before to shifting into the wrong (lower) gear!
Ok, its just I can't see it working that well in LFS, but I do think damage needs to be the next big improvement made to LFS along with things like debris and stuff thrown onto the track! Also you should get to the point where your car is irrepairable (hope thats spelt right) and can't be repaired in the pits - things like serious radiator damage or a broken roof.
However in real racing you would then have a marshall or safety car come and remove debris or parts of your car on the track - which LFS doesn't have Also oil and water spillages would be pretty cool, maybe implimented the same time as rain and ice....but thats a different suggestion!
I think that we will then start to see actually some race simulation and not as it now is, there is big grid of hotlappers pretending that they are fastest of all, but nobody can't understand that winning race won't happen with fastest times, specially when you are in mid pack, there everyone should go slower than currently situation is.
Of course that is not really a truth as there are quite many nice racers that really respect others and do understand this, but at worst that is situation.
With proper damage there would be first big crying crowd posting at forums how damage has killed online racing, then after few weeks we see how racing has become more interesting and whole new tactical doors have been opened, after that any other sim without proper damage will look very lame and there won't be any immersion at all without damage
Generally speeds are decreasing, margins are bigger and 5 lap races feel bit short to most and majority of servers are going to host bit longer races. Drivers are respecting others and T1 mayhems are decreasing quickly. With damage there, it is driver who need to be in control in every situation, even it should be that way already, it takes proper damage model to get many to understand that small thing.
In Operation Flashpoint driver will also get injuries or even die if you crash too hard, it surely adds some level of realism to it. Perhaps in LFS it would be just so that controls and cockpit cam are disabled if you die (crash too hard), but that should not have too much of effect indeed as for next race driver is ok. Maybe would be that it is needed to log off from server until you can race again, perhaps could give that little needed afraid of death addition which is why dying should be possible, imo.
Why not? I was just trying to point out that changing the damage system in such a way that you can destroy your suspension by hitting kerbs on the track would make LFS less not more realistic in most cases. But it's more a problem of the Fern Bay kerbs being too high than a damage problem.
What would be more interesting to LFS realism is to find out why so many corners (especially chicanes) can be taken flat out in LFS that I doubt would be possible in real life.
You're making things much more complex than what I was trying to describe. If you slide wide and hit the wall on South City, it doesn't really matter which suspension component is broken. All that matters is that you hit too hard and your race is over. The current damage model seems to work well for things like going over curbs (though most would say it's not sensitive enough), but it doesn't work well for lateral impacts (how many times have you brushed a wall and had NO suspension damage?) or impacts directly to the front or rear of the car (because the car's body protects the wheels/suspension, and body damage doesn't matter right now). So, we don't need to do everything from scratch, we simply need to fill in those gaps. For side impacts, I think the g-force solution I outlined should work pretty well and be fairly light on resources. For front impacts, an even simpler system could probably be used: "if vertex is pushed back further than Xmm, radiator is punctured." Even the current suspension damage model could be tweaked. Suspension components can take a lot of abuse, but once you break a shock mount, you shouldn't be able to continue on like you currently can. Because body rub isn't modeled, we perhaps need to "fake it" using another method. Perhaps when any suspension component turns completely red, that wheel stops moving completely. This would better model a broken tie rod or a tire that's completely touching the inner fender well. Ditto for engine damage. If you accidentally shift from 5th to 2nd, your race is over. You don't need a complex damage model to determine that. You just need to determine a max rotational speed for each engine and, if it exceeds that speed, you stop the engine.
It doesn't much matter how it's done. It doesn't need to be perfect (and it certainly won't be, because of processing limitations), but it does need to be better. The key is getting people to stop hotlapping their races by making that sort of driving more risky. The days of downshift braking and wall rubbing need to come to a close if LFS is to move forward.
Even the very first release of Nascar Racing by Papyrus (released in 1994!) had a better damage model than LFS currently does. Engines could overheat and blow, and suspension could be damaged to the point that the car wouldn't move. I'm sure the damage model is already high on Scawen's to-do list, but I wanted to illustrate possible ways that LFS's model could be improved and show that it doesn't take a ton of CPU power to do it.
Just tell me when we can interlock open wheel tires and then go flying in the air, and spin cars around and there will be enough uplift to flip the cars over.
Yeah that would improve it and try to stop people which just crash all of the time. Also it would be quiet nice to impliment stalling into the game so you can stall the engine and also tire damage if you smack your tire into the curb - maybe cause a puncture or damage some of the tread!