Quote from Boris Lozac :

LOL


It seems that they actually "teach" them to race like idiots... We were going side by side through BL finish straight aproaching T1, i presented him that i am next to him almost at the begging of the straight, and right before T1 he turned into me (he was outside, i was inside) and rammed me in the grass...

hes just stupid no one would do that in real life!!! if he could see you!

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Then screw the CRC rules?
You can't change your direction two times for an upcoming corner, it's common sense, aren't the CRC rules aplied both in RL and in sims... C'mon now..

I didn't say that. CRC rules are a good guideline and if everyone would follow them racing would be much cleaner. But as said, real life rules may be different, often they allow more aggressive driving than CRC rules.

Quote from geeman1 :

I didn't say that. CRC rules are a good guideline and if everyone would follow them racing would be much cleaner. But as said, real life rules may be different, often they allow more aggressive driving than CRC rules.

But are there any official RL racing rules damnit? Every form of motor sport should follow the same racing rules...

The "one move" rule is followed everywhere afaik (well, except for those odd American series' which do not allow any defending whatsoever). That means one move, no moving back to the racing line until you're in the corner if you move off it, but you can move further in the direction you chose. Zig, but don't zig-zag.

Quote from geeman1 :

So if he was in front he had the right to do pretty much anything without dangering other drivers.

I skipped that part... He WAS dangering me, i wasn't a car behind, i was 1/3 of the car next to him, he KNOWS that, but anyway chooses to turn into me. If that's how they teach people to race in those lower begginers class, than i am glad i don't race in RL.. "Win at any cause" mentality? .. nice...

I can see that's the case by Alan's and Senna's posts... I don't blame them, guess that's the only way you can "survive" and win a race there.. but that's not what racing should be.
You have every right to protect your hard earned position, but not by beeing an idiot and unfair.
That video of V8 commodore vs M3 is a perfect example of how racing should be done...
So, are there some official rules in Real Life racing that every racing series should "try" to follow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xwLC9Vlkk

Montoya vs Schumacher. Look at these highlights and try to understand how actually hard it is to overtake someone who gives "everything, absolutely everything..." to defent the position.

Of course first of all LFS is a game and i believe that most of the people playing it does it for fun, relaxation and so. But there is another group of guys who takes this racing simulator very serious (because it IS serious). They come to race like they would do it in real life. Especially when they have real racing experience.
These two groups have a different point of view about what actually "fun racing" is and i don't think they will ever come to one oppinion. So it is completely natural that his discussion is going the way it is.
I think we should just keep this in mind and continue racing as we like. Because both ways are legal and the only thing we can do at the moment is to race against people who think like us. This way there will be less conflicts

English isn't my mother tongue but i hope i made myself clear

I race on a closed private server, consisting of friends - which admittedly makes "my" server a bit different. However, there is no doubt that when two drivers enter a corner (say, after the back straight on BW) the "inside" driver is often the guy who is trying to gain the position, and it is considered very bad "sportsmanship" for him to take advantage of his line to the point where he runs the other guy off.

If I'm on the inside thru' a turn, and we're both on even terms, I'm going to leave room for my opponent on the outside when coming out of the turn, unless I am absolutely sure that he's not there - and that hardly ever happens.

We all love racing, and noone wants to win by causing an accident. Everyone leaves room for eachother, because there's no fun - or bragging rights - when you ruin an awesome race for eachother. I'd rather have a door-to-door fight over several laps, and finish second, than just take the easy option, and win without being the better driver.

Quote from the688 :

...

+1 and well said. Unfortunately some people get the same the same elation from a win by running someone off the road that we get from clean hard racing.

Quote from Alan Dove :

1.38 on that previous video.... nuff said really that's how you race.... and again that's very hard and aggressive...maybe a bit too aggressive, but hey that's just tough!

and 3.12 again hard and aggressive but that's how you gotta role... that's the name of the game....

If you don't race like that you just won't get anywhere....

and different boats for difference people but who wants to just let guys through.... at least make a fight of it....

These guys are fighting it out for the F1 world title....even tho Montoya is a bandit..... this is what you have to do otherwise what's the point of calling LFS an 'online racing simulation'....instead we should call it

LFS....Sunday Drivers Simulation!

You said it yourself, thats F1 for the world championship. For the most part this conversation has been about LFS, where the large majority is sports car racing.

I would imagine many of us agree, the karting "balls to the wall" style has a place in karting and situations like F1. These exist in LFS as well.

I think most of us find issue, is that you drive this way regardless of actual race conditions in LFS. Sports cars, road cars, and endurance racing simply do not use these ultra-agressive tactics.

Michael Schumacher raced endurance in the C9 Sauber Merecedes before he began his F1 career. While he was a total prick in some F1 cases (unbelievable speed and tenacity made him the best in F1), you would not see him driving a sports car in the same manner.

I think we all would just hope that some of you guys see that sometimes hyper-aggressive driving is not the best style.

So for you the video MyBoss posted of the M3/Holden battle was crap because the two respected one-another?

Quote from Alan Dove :

sports car driving????

Have you never watch the BTCC those guys are complete SAVAGES!!!!

BTCC is probably the worst example as half the field doesn't deserve their racing licenses. They only keep them because their "action oriented" driving, which is nothing short of wrecking in my opinion, causes more people to watch it, thus more £££ for everyone involved.

PS: !!!! and ???? and .... make your posts look kinda stupid

Quote from Boris Lozac :

But are there any official RL racing rules damnit? Every form of motor sport should follow the same racing rules...

Yes. There are rules like I said before, but the rules are not very specific in any case in real life. You will get penalized if the judges see that you are clearly dangering other drivers. For example in your case he would of course get penalized if he was clearly just trying to ram you of the road without even trying to avoid damaging your car. BUT if he just tried to drive defensively (block you or force you on to a bad line) and get around the corner so that you wouldn't be able to get an draft on straigth or something. If he also had an clear overlap (half car or more) there would be an even less possibility he wouldn't get penalized.
It's all about the current situation and how the third party (judges) see it.
Of course in LFS we don't have judges usually. And I do agree with you about cleaner racing being better and such. It's just that in real life it's normal to drive and defend aggressively and if you are known to those rules it's easy to think you can drive the same way in LFS too.

Quote from AndroidXP :

BTCC is probably the worst example as half the field doesn't deserve their racing licenses. They only keep them because their "action oriented" driving, which is nothing short of wrecking in my opinion, causes more people to watch it, thus more £££.

Oh BTCC is always like that? I thought that "review" was showing the "top 10 stupid moves of BTCC 2005" along with the "top 10 dirty moves of BTCC 2005". Reminded me a lot of a regular evening in public LFS-servers, though .

Quote from Alan Dove :

The fact you felt you had to make that point says more about YOU than it does about ME!!!!!!! issues!!!!

No, he was just trying to give you a tip so that people would consider your points.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

yea but what do u race?

I race cars eh?

No seriously I'm racing ford fiesta's (NO LAUGHING AT THE BACK)

Competitive racing and very rarely have I seen those guys ran anyone of the edge by 'squeezing' I have asked around and many other guys believe that this technique is wrong.

I'd be very interested to hear what Tristian Cliffe's opinion on this thread would be. He is someone who has probably raced with both the "karting" mentality before, and now he owns his formula car it would be interesting to see his thoughts. (off topic- anyone seen him lately?)

Also I haven't seen anyone in this discussion who races (in real life) something higher than kart (in terms of weight, cost, ownership) who has supported this race to the limits never give anything attitude.

Quote from srdsprinter :

I'd be very interested to hear what Tristian Cliffe's opinion on this thread would be. He is someone who has probably raced with both the "karting" mentality before, and now he owns his formula car it would be interesting to see his thoughts. (off topic- anyone seen him lately?)

Afaik, he only does sprint races, though, so there are no close battles involved (I could be wrong, though). And yeah, I've seen him in another thread bashing the redline-servers recently. so it seems, he's still the same. only less active.

alan, so why not just ram people off the track, or stop in the middle, wreck everyone, then you can win

Now from a completely different perspective, we also have to worry about the fun we have, since doing something (that is not important for survival) without having fun is pointless, no? Crashing and especially getting wrecked is not fun, and while a little more aggressive rubbing is a-ok in real racing, in LFS it can, thanks to lag and the not quite finished collision detection, quickly result in a ruined race for one or more drivers, thus defeating the whole purpose of even racing in LFS. It's cool if the risky suicide dives... wait no... "presenting yourself" works good in real racing, however, LFS is NOT REAL RACING and we should be considerate and AVOID situations that likely ruin the races of others.

Okay, you can use the same argument and say that people not fighting for position don't provide fun battles/races, which is also true to an extent. Because of that, compromises have to be found and made. Yes, it's not fun if people don't put up a fight or even ruin their race on purpose just to let you through, I agree, but at the same time racing as aggressively and with a high risk of ruining someone else's race is not okay either. Please try to find a solution that meets somewhere in the middle.

[/rant]

Quote from AndroidXP :

Now from a completely different perspective, we also have to worry about the fun we have, since doing something (that is not important for survival) without having fun is pointless, no? Crashing and especially getting wrecked is not fun, and while a little more aggressive rubbing is a-ok in real racing, in LFS it can, thanks to lag and the not quite finished collision detection, quickly result in a ruined race for one or more drivers, thus defeating the whole purpose of even racing in LFS. It's cool if the risky suicide dives... wait no... "presenting yourself" works good in real racing, however, LFS is NOT REAL RACING and we should be considerate and AVOID situations that likely ruin the races of others.

Okay, you can use the same argument and say that people not fighting for position don't provide fun battles/races, which is also true to an extent. Because of that, compromises have to be found and made. Yes, it's not fun if people don't put up a fight or even ruin their race on purpose just to let you through, I agree, but at the same time racing as aggressively and with a high risk of ruining someone else's race is not okay either. Please try to find a solution that meets somewhere in the middle.

[/rant]

Good post, racing of every kind is a sport - not a war, and I believe your level of sportsmanship should be a reflection of the fact that we're all "out there" to have a good time, unless it's top level serious stuff.

did you even read android's post?

Real racing has "real" rewards and a much larger commitment factor. Because of this, unless LFS would be marketed solely for professional racing (iRacing?) no, personally I don't treat it the same way. If there was something at stake apart from a pickup-race win I might think twice about backing off when I really-eally should not need to, but it's not the case, so I don't.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Now from a completely different perspective, we also have to worry about the fun we have, since doing something (that is not important for survival) without having fun is pointless, no?

Quote from Alan Dove :

Yes sometimes someone else's race might be ruined because I didn't give them room...however that is not my problem... that is there's! This is racing, this is what happens....when someone thinks that the person in front is going to give room and they don't then they are a fool for believing that somehow room is going to be donated to them.

This is typical for two kinds of mentality that exist, and that I've seen in every kind of sports I have done.

Some people take part because they like to measure themselves against their opponents. Above all, they want to have fun. And, equally important, they want the others to have fun too, so afterwards they can part as friends.

Some people take part because they like the challenge. Above all, they want to win. To finish first, they are prepared to use every trick that is allowed (and some tricks that aren't). There can only be one winner. If you lose, tough.

At the professional level of the sport you won't see the first type, because these folks are not willing to sacrifice the time and money that it takes to reach the top.

At the recreational level (which includes all of LFS, imho) you can see both types of people. And whenever they mix you may get sour faces. Each side will claim that the others don't have the right mentality.

Quote from wsinda :

At the recreational level (which includes all of LFS, imho) you can see both types of people. And whenever they mix you may get sour faces. Each side will claim that the others don't have the right mentality.

this one here is about rules and not about mentality though and applying those rules youll get rid of many with the 2nd type of mentality quickly

i dont think it was a conincidence that when i reported ayrtons driving on one of the stcc servers the response i got was something along the lines of "i would have banned him for that if he wasnt already"

Then you might have a bit skewed view of the limit, as it starts where the fun of other people stops.