The thing is, i am getting pi**ed off for being called "MTV boy", "commercial boy", and other stuff by my friends...
I wanted to know opinion of other people on this subject.

My friends all of a sudden(over night so to say) become some garage/underground/"we did't earn a dollar in our carrier" band fans...
They don't want to go to clubs, parties anymore where there's house/club music, r'n'b, etc... They somehow "over grown" that... (we are in mid 20-ies).

While i don't have anything against bands like Kaiser Chiefs, Muse, Bily Childlish(they digg him out of museum and is one of their favoritues now), the thing is... i don't wanna listen to that kind of music when i go out, it doesn't cut it for me, if you know what i'm saying..
To go home from work, nervous/angry and to play Bily Childlish is redicolous, it doesn't do anything to my emotions you know, i wanna listen to something that has some emotions in it, like Coldplay, Linkin Park, Barry White, Sade, Ace of Base, etc.. something that i can relate to, something that quirks my emotions up and let me feel better in that moment...

The other day, i mentioned how i would pay as much as it takes and went alone if Linkin Park ever comes to Belgrade or near it. They gave me that cheesy laugh, like "how can you go to that commercial junk".

Well, excuse me, but isn't it every musician/band upmost goal to become popular in what they do and, "god forbidden", earn some cash? You are not popular because you suck! You are popular for a reason!

It's like saying Rodger Federer is a commercial junkie, he plays on big tournaments and earns cash, and he is popular..... commercial scumb*g, he only cares for the money and popularity.. He should play in the dirt or play the "Albanian Open" instead of "Wimbledon"...

Are you still with me... sorry for my poor sentence making skills in english, i hope you can grasp what i am trying to say here...

While i apreciate the garage bands, you can't say that those who end up on MTV/VH1 are crap! How pathetic and jealous is that?
Yea, sure, there's the "MTV generation" who mainly listens to Britney, Christina, Back street boys, but you can't generalize it like that. It's like who ever singer/band makes it, become popular (for a reason, remember) and starts to earn money, they imediately become "MTV commercial boys", low, selfish and money eating bastards...
I'm sorry but i don't have the time to digg some "underground" sites/forums or go to basements to listen to bands and seak for some quality music (no offense to you guys). There's certainly some high quality music there to be find, but how can i find out about it? And to be honest, i can't be bothered... I admit, i love to see music videos and can like the song more if i see a video of it. Call me cheap, yea..

For instance Linkin Park, however you may call them, "Stupid MTV generation" band or whatever, they burst something in me, i get all full of adrenalin and really kicks in some emotions in me. So am i fool because of that? A cheap, low quality MTV boy?

Sorry, i had to get that out of me, and i am really coriuos to see what you guys think about all this...

Quote from Boris Lozac :

...massive quote...

No, you are not a fool because you like a specific genre of music. This also really pisses me off. I wish that music would be the ONE thing that people aren't discriminated against for. Everyone can enjoy at least one genre of music and no one should be made fun of for liking a certain type. I hate the whole "rap vs. rock" or "rock vs. classical" battles. It's all ridiculous if you ask me. So what if you like a certain genre. Everyone is different. So again, no, you are not a fool.

Ha ha...I remember when I was in my twenties and EVERYTHING was reeeeeal intense, MAAAAN. Once you get past the 3-0 mark you either learn to accept that the world isnt going to bend to what you like, and what you like alone, or you become a bitter, jaded a**hole.

Boris, I suspect your friends are going to be jaded and angry alot over trivial things throughout their lifes.

And really, if they were indeed your friends, they would accept that you like different genres of music than they do. It makes you better, well rounded person to explore all sorts of musical facets.

You know what? Find some more decent people to associate with. Life is too short for arrogant, pompous know-it-all twits.

Never heard of Billy Childish myself (or any of the bands he's been in). More to the point, while I'd say that the music on MTV or Kerrang, etc, is hardly the greatest selection of music*, it's no reason that the artists are mass produced nonsense. If a great track is played on TV, is it suddenly any less good? I don't think so.

*always only the singles (they need a music video in the first place, though sadly conventional radio is little better), non-recent bands get relegated to only having their most popular hit played, so regular watchers are exposed to such a small volume of tracks it nears monotony

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I admit, i love to see music videos and can like the song more if i see a video of it. Call me cheap, yea..

You're cheap! Don't see the big thing about music videos myself, I see them as a novelty really. Of course, if you enjoy them, so be it, certainly doesn't make the song any worse.

Quote from jayhawk :

Boris, I suspect your friends are going to be jaded and angry alot over trivial things throughout their lifes.

Ah... bingo! Exactly how i think...

I forgot to add one more thing, and that is that they consider the whole music thing WAYY too serious, they judge the songs like, "NAH, that song will fade in 2 weeks". SO WHAT, i like it right now, i don't have the supper powers to know wheather that song will be the all time classic in 10, 20 years you know..

And it seems that it became trendy to hate succesfull things.
Like "Snakes on a Plane" movie is great! It's so bad that is great, how they say... Sorry, the movie is COMPLETE GARBAGE in every aspect!

Quote from Boris Lozac :

While i don't have anything against bands like Kaiser Chiefs, Muse

Wait... are these the "underground" and "garage" bands? I'm sick of them, playing 24/7 on the radio here.

Quote :

You are not popular because you suck! You are popular for a reason!

I get the feeling that the "reason" is often being featured on the radio on and on and on and on and on (can't stress it enough!) until people get the music in their heads enough to think they like it. The other reason is...

Quote :

I admit, i love to see music videos and can like the song more if i see a video of it. Call me cheap, yea..

Yea... My friend often makes me laugh when he tells me about some "great" song which usually turns out to be a piece of youknowwhat and the only reason he likes it is because there are some nice young chicks showing their "bottoms" in the camera.

Quote :

For instance Linkin Park, however you may call them, "Stupid MTV generation" band or whatever, they burst something in me, i get all full of adrenalin and really kicks in some emotions in me. So am i fool because of that? A cheap, low quality MTV boy?

Sorry, i had to get that out of me, and i am really coriuos to see what you guys think about all this...

If it makes you feel better - I'm not a fan of theirs, or "commercial" music in general, but I can understand that someone (you) likes them. I mean I accept the fact that there's "something" in their music, just something that I don't fancy personally. There are bands that I wouldn't understand someone liking, so there you go

Just to get two things out of the way quickly: If you like music, you like it. Regardless of what it is. And please don't apologise for your English - every word made perfect sense. The standard of English usage among non-native English speakers in this forum amazes me.

"Commercial" music...

The bands that really get up my nose are the bands who make a conscious choice to create music which will sell. This is different from creating music because you love it and it becomes popular.

You mentioned Coldplay - they are a classic example. They know how music works, they have a talent for writing songs, and they chose to pursue a certain sound because they thought it had commercial potential. It did, and make them a fortune, but they did it in a cynical way. I don't think they even like their own music.

I don't know if Linkin Park are the same, I don't know anything about them.

"Indie"/"Underground" music...

My two favourite bands ever are Fishbone and Cud. Neither ever got very big, but when I started listening to them I expected them to become huge. Fishbone had exceptionally talented musicians and a unique sound, Cud had quirky songs with lots of character and a unique lead vocal in a sea of (at the time) uniform sound-a-like bands.

Cud are interesting because after three albums they got signed to a major label (A&M), and the next two albums they produced I didn't like, because the label had asked them to make more chart-friendly music. They lost their unique sound, and became just-another-pop-band making perfectly good, but uninteresting, pop music. I knew a couple of the guys from Cud quite well - they used to come and see my band play when I was a kid - and they are well aware that they basically alienated their home-grown fan base with those last two records.

It's tricky... If your friends really are just scenester arseholes who are seeking out new bands to champion in order to look cool, then that's pretty lame. But maybe they are just bored of the majority of mainstream music? If they are musicians themselves, then it's quite likely.

Funnily enough, my sister called me yesterday to ask what I wanted for my birthday, and I couldn't think of anything so I gave her a list of older CDs that I really ought to have, but don't have. She took the list to a chainstore record shop and gave it to the staff, and nobody in the shop had heard of any of the artists, despite them all being considered classics these days (artists like John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock, Roy Ayers).

I've never specifically looked but I don't imagine something like your typical HMV would have much of a Jazz section. I definately wouldn't expect the staff to know much about that area either, simply because I get the impression jazz lovers would be doing something more fulfilling with their lives than stacking CDs at HMV.

Any record shop should have a copy of Headhunters. And Giant Steps for that matter. Although my sister does live in Wakefield...

Quote from thisnameistaken :

The standard of English usage among non-native English speakers in this forum amazes me.

as does the standard of English held by native speakers, just not in such a positive way.

Listening to Music that's "cool" is fine, listening to Music because it's "cool" is the problem - it's ironic if someone complains that you are listening to popular music and campaigns for "underground" music, as the fact they like Music based upon the fact it tries to portray itself as "different" depicts whether they like it or not is just as bad as getting it because it's popular etc.

But then m'eh, i'm a Musical pleb, i've got a playlist with "Greats" like Muse, Metallica, Rob Zombie, Rammstein, Animals and Led Zep Time to get me some "Fishbone" and "Cud" methinks, Muse is getting a little... repetitive!

EDIT - Couldn't find no Cud, but Fishbone seem ok, actually...

You're in luck!

Cud are re-releasing their back catalogue this year (when A&M terminated their contract they also [inexplicably] handed over the rights to all their old recordings), starting with When In Rome, Kill Me at the end of this month. Leggy Mambo will apparently follow in September and that was the best one.

Avoid Asquarius or Showbiz.

As for Fishbone - Sony have put up some of their stuff on Youtube lately, so you could try searching Fishbone SonyBMG for the singles or just Fishbone for more fringe stuff and see how that tickles you.

They are this preposterous.

Edit: Actually, Los Fabulosos Cadillacs are pretty awesome in their own right.

The only Cud you're likely to find is live stuff from the mini-tour they did last year to promote their newly-re-owned back catalogue, which was great as it happens and the most fun I've had on a night out in forever, but the quality of the recordings will be crappy.

Speaking of listening to what you like, I really enjoy the band Keane. Yes, I like Keane, and I am not ashamed of it. They are incredibly talented, make great music, and I am probably one the few straight men who like.

But I dont care!


@Bob Smith - after you mentioned Jazz, I had to listen to a few Mingus songs. BeBop Jazz is so cool, it's hot.

The thing about all these non-conformists are that they're all the same! (I think I ripped that off of a t-shirt or something)

Based on similar experience, I think your friends are probably being a bit hypocritical because though they're harrassing you for liking music just because it's commercially successful, I bet they are (whether consciously or not) just forming these opinions to jive with a similar trend. Like others have mentioned, it's "cool" to dislike whatever happens to be popular, and vice versa. I wouldn't worry too much about your "friends'" snide comments; they're either just going through a phase and they'll learn to appreciate a wider variety of music based simply on its musical merit - or they're not just going through a phase and you probably won't want to hang out with them much in the future.

Personally, I have an enormous library of very very different music styles. I appreciate many different flavors of music that conventionally wouldn't co-exist very well. I enjoy everything from old-school jazz, melodic death metal, classical, some cheesy pop music, classic rock, electronica, and even some particular rap artists. The only genre I can think of that I absolutely can't stand is the modern "country music." Here, I'll shuffle my library and list the first handful of songs that pop up: Down in a Hole - Alice in Chains; California Uber Alles - Dead Kennedys; Concatenation - Meshuggah; Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps - Cake; Mr. Krinkle - Primus; Father Lucifer - Tori Amos; Die Entführung aus dem Serail, opera, K. 384: Overture - W.A. Mozart; Phoenix - The Prodigy; Cousin Mary - John Coltrane; Felonies of the Christian Art - Old Man's Child. Admittedly though, I'm a metal-head at heart. When I pick up a guitar, metal comes out. But when I'm on the piano I end up playing jazz/blues or classical stuff. On the drums though I tend toward latin-style or metal beats.

I don't know, I guess I can see both sides of the coin. I mean, being a musician who's never made a significant amount of money out of it I most certainly do become frustrated and a bit angry when I see/hear groups in the top 40s or whatever who really have no musical talent - and I see it a lot! It seems to me that there IS a significant cross-section of the industry that is based solely on an IMAGE or banking on a particular style that happens to be selling. I mean, there are people who claim to be like "Image Managers" and will help bands in LA decide what to wear and everything - WTF? But the way you talk about the music you like, I can tell you're not just another sucker that buys whatever MTV says is hip at the moment, but that you actually appreciate music for its inherent value. That's great. While I can't stand to listen to Linkin Park for more than the time it takes to change it, if that's what gets your blood going then that's cool with me! (I will admit to owning an Ace of Base album though ) You mentioned Barry White too? Rock on! While of course his music has been popular, I wouldn't say it's like "mainstream" or "commercialized" or whatever... It's just good music!

Ok well this is getting overlength, so anyway, just tell your friends to suck it. They're just being dumbasses.

EDIT: @ jayhawk: Yes, the bebop era is the greatest imo!
Also, anyone into Dream Theater? My tickets to go see them in Berkeley in a couple weeks just came in the mail this afternoon!!! Be jealous! (Though I do need to study the new album a bit more...)

Quote from thisnameistaken :

They are this preposterous.

eww

Quote :

Edit: Actually, Los Fabulosos Cadillacs are pretty awesome in their own right.

this one is actually rather good
as for bands which are relatively unknown (outside of the netherlands that is) live is pretty good

to the opening post ... ace of base emotion filled ? are we talking about the same ace of base ?

Quote from jayhawk :

@Bob Smith - after you mentioned Jazz, I had to listen to a few Mingus songs. BeBop Jazz is so cool, it's hot.

Yeah my sister had never even heard of Miles Davis. This is my twin sister!

I have a bit of a soft spot for Mingus, being a bass player. But he was a pretty brutal dude.

Quote from Shotglass :

eww

You are walking on thin ice!

OK, so that is a rather odd record. How about... this one. Sadly they truncated the bari sax solo at the end for the single - it's a couple of minutes longer on the album and gets really dark and dirty.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

You are walking on thin ice!

try me !

Quote :

OK, so that is a rather odd record. How about... this one. Sadly they truncated the bari sax solo at the end for the single - it's a couple of minutes longer on the album and gets really dark and dirty.

this one is actually rather good ... i dunno if i could stand listening to the singers tone of voice for a whole album but the music itself is pretty darn good and fun to listen to

as for non commercial music that i am rather fond of ... these are about as non commercial as it gets eternity Choose Zero Polys and Shaders my dirty old kamel Nero
ok the last two are somewhat commercial

Quote from Shotglass :

this one is actually rather good ... i dunno if i could stand listening to the singers tone of voice for a whole album but the music itself is pretty darn good and fun to listen to

Angelo is a bit of a unique selling point for Fishbone. Sings, writes, plays sax and theremin(!), and just totally owns live performances. Back in the glory days of their original line-up they used to share lead vocals a bit though - their trumpet player Walter used to take some, and keyboard/trombonist Chris Dowd took a few too.

Quote from Shotglass :

as for non commercial music that i am rather fond of ... these are about as non commercial as it gets eternity Choose Zero Polys and Shaders my dirty old kamel
ok that last one is somewhat commercial

First one sounds like a 16-bit videogame theme tune! Quite a novelty, but I wouldn't listen to it regularly. The second one I like the size of the beats and the lo-fi mono synths but the overall arrangement is a bit "trance" for me, not enough humanity in it I think. Third one - another videogame theme! I could be flying a 2D spaceship up a black screen to this one!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Angelo is a bit of a unique selling point for Fishbone. Sings, writes, plays sax and theremin(!)

while its impressive in pretty much requiring absolute pitch the usefulness of being able to play something that can get a single rather distorted sounding note out is somewhat doubtful

Quote :

First one sounds like a 16-bit videogame theme tune! Quite a novelty, but I wouldn't listen to it regularly. The second one I like the size of the beats and the lo-fi mono synths but the overall arrangement is a bit "trance" for me, not enough humanity in it I think. Third one - another videogame theme! I could be flying a 2D spaceship up a black screen to this one!

yeah ... reminds you of a better time doesnt it ?
btw ive added a forth chiptune up there for your enjoyment

Jazz??? What about Spyra Gyra?

@ Boris, you know, I've heard people go off about how "pure" indie acts are
and well the truth is there's a REASON alot of them are on indie labels.
And going to some hole in the wall to see some second rate garage band is
ok if you're a fan of the band or something, but I thought going to clubs had more to do with getting trashed and meeting members of the opposite sex.
At least it was when I was in my twenties. At least I think so. The first half was a blur and the second half was fatherhood.
Any ways, listen to whatever you want to. It's your ears

Quote from Racer Y :

Jazz??? What about Spyra Gyra?

It's all a bit elevator isn't it?

Quote from Racer Y :

@ Boris, you know, I've heard people go off about how "pure" indie acts are and well the truth is there's a REASON alot of them are on indie labels.

Bit of a generic snub, that. There are plenty of bands with multi-year deals with majors who ought to be cleaning toilets for a living. At least an indie band will stand or fall on the strength of its musical output, not clever marketing.

I tried so hard when I was younger to get as far away as possible from mainstream music (professional freak), thinking that you had to work really hard to find the good stuff. If you were lazy, then you'd just end up walking right over all the buried treasure. I've mellowed so much in my early 30s that I can appreciate a good Kylie Minogue/Madonna song the same as anyone. And there ARE good mainstream bands and acts around, but there are also DIAMONDS hidden under layer apon layer of media-sphere trash, and they should be worth digging out as well. If you put in the time digging around for good music, you'll be rewarded.

edit: but I agree... your friends are acting like jerks

I think you could draw a line between mainstream music from past decades and the mainstream music today because music industry just is so fecked up nowadays. It's just all about the money. When the big money shows up in the picture it destroys much of the creativity. I think Linkin Park could be a perfect example of this (now Boris is gonna :bananadea me?).

Then again I don't know that much about music indursty because I'm not an artist, can't even play any instrument but you don't need to be Martin Scorsese to have a right to say that this movie sucks.

I don't personally listen much (more like not at all) music made in 21st century. Not because it's mainstream and popular but because I just don't like the music itself, I don't get any kicks from it. It's just sounds generic, dull, over-produced and in general made too much with pictures of dollars in the eyes. Noise pollution for my ears. My music taste was kind of reborn few years ago, when I started forgetting the "MTV music" and little by little found bands that most of are not even active anymore that I prefer listening now instead of insert-here-a-random-emo-"alternative"-rock-band-from-year-2007. The bands that I listen now were very much mainstream in the 70's, nowadays considered classics and that comes to the point made in the first paragraph...

If I'd now listen same stuff I listened 10 years ago, I would throw up. I'm probably not very unprejudiced but I think everyone can develop their music liking/taste if they just want. Actually I wish I wouldn't have never done that, now I can't even turn up the latest radio hit channel without getting dangerously high blood pressure.

Quote from deggis :

I think Linkin Park could be a perfect example of this (now Boris is gonna :bananadea me?).

:bananadea :bananadea Burn!

Well, after hearing some more stuff on the new LP album, i am not too far with agreeing with you, but the thing is, they have something in their music that triggers me (earlier stuff mostly), i am not saying that there isn't some other band out there that kicks ass more than they do but i don't get the chance to find about it, i am not that kind of guy. I am not in the new "hipy" trip, hate all that is mainstream and popular, fight the power, etc...
As Racer Y said, going out should be fun, and i am sorry but i can't have fun in some indy "party" in some basement, drinking beer from the can before you go in because it's cheaper, god forbid that you actually pay for a drink in the club, FIGHT THE POWER, BUY CHEAP..

You see my point here, a year/two ago we were really cool guys, going out every weekend, clubing, mostly house music with likes of Dimitry From Paris, David Guetta, etc, bass pumping, fog light, strobe kicking and flerting with beautifull girls. That's what makes it a good night out for me, i wanna FEEL the music, i rarely get the chance to be free from work on fridays and saturdays and i don't wanna waste it on a indy basement party, i am not saying that you can't have fun there, i'm just not that kind a guy and nore are my friends.
Just because they are sick of MTV mainstream crap, it's sad to waste your social life fighting that, bying drink in a supermarket and drinking in front of it, and listening to indy bands when you go out. It's ok to listen it home and apreciate the quality that is not spoiled by money, but that music just don't cut it for me when i go out...

/end of rant

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's all a bit elevator isn't it?



Bit of a generic snub, that. There are plenty of bands with multi-year deals with majors who ought to be cleaning toilets for a living. At least an indie band will stand or fall on the strength of its musical output, not clever marketing.

LOL most jazz is IMO.

And no there areen't plenty of bands with multi-year deals with majors who ought to be cleaning toilets for a living. No there are HORDES of them.
But the point I was trying to make was just because some band touts itself as an "indie" band doesn't really mean much. I especially can't stand acts that seem to rant and rave how cool they are being this great "indie" band,
when their music is as unoriginal and uninspiring as the last act that came around and waved that flag. You know what I'm saying? But there are a lot of indie acts that are really fun to watch and good to listen to.

I just have a question for your friends: do they behave like this only with you? Do they make an exception, for instance, for girls? Are they willing to forget, from time to time, their beloved principles, especially when they can have a personal advantage by doing so? Are they principled, or just a bunch of poseurs?

I'd go for the second from your description. They seem to know too little about music and society to be so critical. Maybe they'll evolve and avoid to care about the market, and that's the only way to be free to a certain extent. But if they ever become so, they'll also become fully aware that some things, like social aspects of music and everything related, will never be the same for them.

Yesterday's playlist:

Minamo - Beautiful
Aufgehoben - Messidor
Philp Jeck - Vynil Coda IV

I'd give your friends the Messidor cure, after having carefully read all the reviews (especially the one by The Wire). But I doubt they would understand.

Edit: I also doubt they would understand the thousands of lessons that can be taught by a video like this.