Quote from tailing :

This is elitist stereotyping plain and simple, if these supposed "arcade racers" actually existed don't you think they'd be playing arcade games and not a simulation like LFS?

Its not elitist at all, its the truth. There are lots of LFS users, and you can tell by reading the forums, who are not into the whole 'hardcore' simulation deal. I am sure as LFS matures people will leave because they don't like the 'realism'. LFS has good physics but there are still lots of aspects that are 'arcadey' because they are not yet complete.

I don't see it as being elitist. Where do you sit when you drive a car in real life? The driver seat. Where is that driver seat? Inside the car.

It all comes back to FCV being an option and nothing more than an option. I'm done posting about this because these debates will never end, if we all kept posting we would have a 500 page thread after awhile.

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Its not elitist at all, its the truth. There are lots of LFS users, and you can tell by reading the forums, who are not into the whole 'hardcore' simulation deal. I am sure as LFS matures people will leave because they don't like the 'realism'.

I don't see how that's NOT elitist...

Quote from sinkoman :

I don't see how that's NOT elitist...

...I didn't put anyone down or call anyone names...I never said a certain group was better than another...I never said I was better than anyone else...I just stated facts that can be backed up by information in, on and around these forums...

I've only seen this option used on lx month servers and some autocross servers. What's with all the fuss?

it seems it was a little naively till now I really thought that anyone who drive LFS is interested in simulations. That meens for me driving in cockpit like in my real car! But now i've often to read "can't drive in cockpit", "don't see enouth" and so on.
I asked me: how the hell do you drive on the real street?
Can't you turn your head? Can't you hear other cars? Is it impossible to use the mirrors?
I can not really understand this disscussion. In my opinion anyone who uses other then in car views is wrong at driving simulations (not only LFS). It should'nt be possible to drive with other views.

Sorry to all cockpitdrivers this meens not you

I think we've had pretty much every argument imaginable for or against FCF at least 10 times now. No one is ever gonna agree with the opposing side, best thing to do IMO is to just agree to disagree. This thread will go on until the end of days if a kind mod doesn't lock it.

Sorry, but i think it is'nt a question of agree or disagree. LFS wants to be a simulation (perhaps the best). Simulating real driving meens cockpitview! Noone can disagree with that.

Quote from PapaX :

Noone can disagree with that.

Are you blind or something, mate? If no one disagreed with it this thread wouldn't have lasted this long. Anyone can disagree with anything they like. And the expression "agree to disagree" is used in debates where neither side is willing to agree with the other side, as seems to be the case here. Arguing any further is just kicking a dead horse. And I don't think this one is gonna get any deader than it already is...

... not blind. The devs saying on the Homepage

"LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving."

So i can't understand the hole discussion.

Quote from PapaX :

Simulating real driving meens cockpitview! Noone can disagree with that.

Balls. I disagree. And I am not one of the people ....

Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

who are not into the whole 'hardcore' simulation deal.

Red Herrings:

1. "Its an option" - Promoting FCV as "hardcore" means ALL decent servers will adopt it. Hands up all committed racers who want to be known as "softcore"? No takers? I thought so....
   
2. "What about breakable windshields?" - whatever algorithm is applied to the virtual windshield can be applied to ANY view.
   
3. "Its about creating a level playing field" - So if I play on a 14" monitor, can we also have an option to restrict everyone to to the same amount of screen real estate. 800 x 600 for all!!
   
4. "If you sit in a real car...." - you aren't sitting in a real car. Period. When I drive, the dashboard is not in my line of sight, because perception does not work within a pseudo-proscenium arch, with rectangular boundaries, set to a 4:3 ratio. You are looking at a picture. It is not real.

The FCV is not like limiting driving aids. The notion that the cockpit view is somehow more realistic is derived from a simplistic notion of how images represent reality. Its stupid and unneccesarily divisive.

I am happy to use cockpit view - my times do not differ if I do so. My frame rate drops like a bomb, but .... hey, whatever, I'll just have to look for those servers that only have about five other people on them.... This bugs me, but no where near as much as the infantile idea that FCV is "hardcore" or even, that its "realistic". Go out and read some ****ing books...

i really dunno about this discussion... if you want to be fast, you always have to look where you are going... and in 98% cases it does not matter if the cockpit is there or not...
with the FCV on, I can't race on those serves if more than 18 people are there... try going through T1 with 10fps...

Quote from nihil :

This bugs me, but no where near as much as the infantile idea that FCV is "hardcore" or even, that its "realistic".

Nobody says that it is "realistic"! but it is more realistic than driving with case view or without carbody.

Quote from PapaX :

Nobody says that it is "realistic"! but it is more realistic than driving with case view or without carbody.

How? Certainly from my twenty years of driving, a bonnet cam is closer to what I see from the drivers seat.

Edit: Oh god... its actually closer to twenty-five years of driving....

He didn't say "Dashboard Cam" wasn't as realistic, or more realistic, or less realistic. He said Cockpit View is more realistic than CHASE view or WHEELS view, which is absolutely true.

I would like to have a certain amount of configurability for the cockpit view. As long as it's near enough inline with the current view (laterally), forces you to look through a windscreen, but allows seat position to be adjusted (and therefore allow you to be close to the screen to 'simulate' what you would see IRL, then that's good. Nobody, least of all Scawen, has said that won't happen (or that it will!).

Personally, when I drive, I can move my eyes around and see the whole cabin, but when I look out of the screen I ignore the rest. With FCV (or very close to it, as I did use slightly altered custom views) I can do the same - check my speed, check my dials, check my mirrors, all without moving my head (either IRL or virtually). With 'Dash Cam' I can't see anything, and hence lose a lot of my spatial awareness.

From FCV I do not have a blind spot because I know where cars are. I might not be able to 'see' a car, but as I could see it approaching in the corner of my eye I know exactly where he is.

tristancliffe - absolutely agree with you

Would we not all agree on a setting that allows you to move the camera and adjust the field of view, but in a way that you can only see things that the virtual driver would be able to see? That was more or less the original point of this thread.

What this boils down to is being able to change the height of the virtual driver within realistic bounds, and being able to move the camera forwards whilst keeping it within the field of view of the virtual driver.

This basically would mean the following views are out:

• Chase
  
• Helicopter
  
• Bumper (driver's view would be obstructed by top of bonnet/hood)
  
• Centre(er) (would show more of the opposite side of the car/road than can be seen from the driver's seat)

Leaving:

• Cockpit (fine for those with big/close screen)
  
• Forward Cockpit (leaving the steering wheel out)
  
• Over bonnet (but in front of driver)

Edit: Tristan posted whilst I was typing

Quote from morcs :

Edit: Tristan posted whilst I was typing

*looks at timestamp of Tristan's post*

*looks at timestamp of morc's post*

You must be a slow typist or something, mate

Quote from obsolum :

You must be a slow typist or something, mate

In the meantime I actually left the office, ordered a pizza, bought a bottle of champagne, bought a card, collected the pizza and came back to the office

Quote from nihil :

How? Certainly from my twenty years of driving, a bonnet cam is closer to what I see from the drivers seat.

Edit: Oh god... its actually closer to twenty-five years of driving....

Must just be a personal thing then, because cockpit view is much closer to what I have experianced in my 20 years of driving.

Think this video shows pretty good that the standard cockpit view isn't that realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... ;mode=related&search=

It isn't LFS, but it have the view at the same position.


Doesn't look right when he is steering his wheel and you can see the guy on the screen doing exactly the same. The view should have been right above the steeringwheel or something.

Quote from MyBoss :

Think this video shows pretty good that the standard cockpit view isn't that realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... ;mode=related&search=

It isn't LFS, but it have the view at the same position.


Doesn't look right when he is steering his wheel and you can see the guy on the screen doing exactly the same. The view should have been right above the steeringwheel or something.

Yep, that's exactly why you should use a realistic low fov with cockpit, like 60, and then you see almost exactly what you would see IRL. As for mirrors, use the virtual one, it's not realistic, but you need to sacrifice something if you have only one monitor, and it's better to be the mirrors than the whole view.

Quote from danowat :

Must just be a personal thing then, because cockpit view is much closer to what I have experianced in my 20 years of driving.

I absolutely agree here - it is very subjective... dependent on what type of screen one is using, how close to the screen one sits, how large the screen is, what resolution one uses. The degree of subjectivity involved is very much at the root of my opposition.

It is one thing to determine how the brakes work ie. whether braking help is allowed or not. These calculations all take place on the other side of the screen... in the fictional, simulated world. Views are not of the same order, not the same type of information.

Tristan, I do have some symapathy with your post regarding configurability, and I realise that I'm arguing a lost cause against the FCV jihad, but I just don't agree that:

Quote :

Cockpit View is more realistic than CHASE view or WHEELS view, which is absolutely true.

I never use chase view, just as a matter of personal taste, but I can see that such a view merely transforms the spatial understanding one has in a real car (informed by all sorts of stimuli that LFS will never provide), into a concrete image. It is therefore, no less realistic than any other view. The advantage of being able to see the racing line more clearly is negligable to anyone experienced in using a sim.

It is absolutely not a matter of the view replicating what one sees in real life. This kind of naturalism is nothing but a fantasy, an ideal. If you wish to indulge it, fair enough, but I don't see the point of forcing that fantasy on other people.

But the real point for me is: How can u drive a car, from other point then cockpit?????

Its real strange for me, i use Simulation from 2003, and i Own practically all the Sims are out atm (rbr, race, gtr2, rfactor, netKarPro etc... for say some of the actual Sim), but i can't never drive with other view then cockpit, for me is impossible to understand any other type of driving...this is when i drive a Simulator (Simulator Game, if prefer), and i dont think im the only one...

If i wanna Playing a Racing Game i go to Need For Speed, or Burnout, then i can play with chase view, roof view etc...but absolutly Not in any other Simulation, where i try to extrapolate maximum realism (I use a 58 FOV, generally), like the degrees of my G25 (i.e. 720°), the FFB etc...

This is My Humble Opinion, of course, and sorry for my english...

Stefano

Quote from SGRdust :

But the real point for me is: How can u drive a car, from other point then cockpit?????

Its real strange for me, i use Simulation from 2003, and i Own practically all the Sims are out atm (rbr, race, gtr2, rfactor, netKarPro etc... for say some of the actual Sim), but i can't never drive with other view then cockpit, for me is impossible to understand any other type of driving...this is when i drive a Simulator (Simulator Game, if prefer), and i dont think im the only one...

If i wanna Playing a Racing Game i go to Need For Speed, or Burnout, then i can play with chase view, roof view etc...but absolutly Not in any other Simulation, where i try to extrapolate maximum realism (I use a 58 FOV, generally), like the degrees of my G25 (i.e. 720°), the FFB etc...

This is My Humble Opinion, of course, and sorry for my english...

Stefano

You're not taking time off from coding 1.0.3 are you? Anyway, welcome to LFS forums and we'll put you down as an FCV fan shall we?

Quote from nihil :

I absolutely agree here - it is very subjective... dependent on what type of screen one is using, how close to the screen one sits, how large the screen is, what resolution one uses. The degree of subjectivity involved is very much at the root of my opposition.

It is one thing to determine how the brakes work ie. whether braking help is allowed or not. These calculations all take place on the other side of the screen... in the fictional, simulated world. Views are not of the same order, not the same type of information.

Tristan, I do have some symapathy with your post regarding configurability, and I realise that I'm arguing a lost cause against the FCV jihad, but I just don't agree that:



I never use chase view, just as a matter of personal taste, but I can see that such a view merely transforms the spatial understanding one has in a real car (informed by all sorts of stimuli that LFS will never provide), into a concrete image. It is therefore, no less realistic than any other view. The advantage of being able to see the racing line more clearly is negligable to anyone experienced in using a sim.

It is absolutely not a matter of the view replicating what one sees in real life. This kind of naturalism is nothing but a fantasy, an ideal. If you wish to indulge it, fair enough, but I don't see the point of forcing that fantasy on other people.

I'm not in the FCV camp really, but imo, this doesn't boil down to "transforming the spatial understanding one has in a real car....into a concrete image", and is much more about "replicating what one sees in real life".
All cars are different. The view you get from an F1 car should not be the same as the view you get from a hot-hatch. The "spatial understanding" is in no way the same either.

In an ideal world we'd all have supreme vr-goggles and totally free head movment. If that were the case then there's only one place the "camera" could ever be put. As we are, people can differ on FOV, how much dashboard is shown etc etc, but there's still no reason why the "camera" should not be placed along a line running roughly through the driver's head, and definitely (imo) no reason to be able to see things which a driver simply cannot see from his point of view.

Remove things from sight by moving the camera forward, yes, if that gives you more monitor space for the road - but move the "camera" to a central location? Move it to outside of the car? Make its front wheels contacting the road visible? You can have a view with nothing but road in it, but it should still be off-set (if the driver's position is, and btw, it's not the same to sit to one side of your monitor, because a monitor is not like a window ) and should (again imo) be at around the driver's head height.

I repeat, I don't really care about FCV, but I think the argument is healthy so I posted.