The only reward I want is clean fun races, I got this on STCC and I,m sure it will be even better on CTRA,I see the points system as a means to an end the goal being great racing,saying that I like gold coins with chocolate in the middle
WOW who makes this about Becky and Sam all of a sudden. I have nothing then respect for what they try and created. They are however just people. And the way the points are awarded is just 1 aspect of the system. And the distribution of it feels biased now, beneficial of hotlappers who's goal it is to make 1 quick lap and not towards racing. Can be that it will settle over time and practice (my own) but its a point of concern for me. However it wont stop me from enjoying the server.
Dont think its fair that our/mine mere observations on the system is immediately interpreted as critisism on the people behind it.
Me too, if you wait to buy them until after chirstmas you'll get them A LOT cheaper, 20p for a bag, but a warning. You will feel sick if you buy £5's worth
I think a good portion of the playerbase will have to relearn why they're actually racing on CTRA servers. The obvious answer is "to have fun and clean races", but I think many people are underestimating the power of numbers.
Be it post counts, frags, experience points/level/stats, gold or even the good old score; if you think about it, there are millions over millions of people all around the world doing their best to increase a number stored in a database. Do you think any of the popular MMORPGs would be nearly as populated if there weren't little numbers to increase (or items with better numbers to get)?
I bet a lot of people were just going to CTRA/STCC because every other race you got rewarded with an increase of your personal number, coupled with a big reward (a level up) after you pass a certain threshold. I wouldn't be surprised if the popularity of CTRA goes down overall, now that points are harder to gain. Or let me rephrase that, I think CTRA classic will remain roughly the same, as many people already got their license before CTRA X was introduced, so the "point loss" has a much lower impact. Single seaters will IMO have the least participants, as apparently points are hardest to get there combined with the less forgiving cars (at least in higher tiers), while BnJ will explode because not only do you have to spend considerably less effort racing clean, you also get stupid amount of points stupidly easy. Basically the bigger the number after the +, the more popular.
From that perspective, the harshest thing to see in the new system is getting a "+0" after putting much effort in a clean and long race. If hypothetically CTRA wanted to keep the point gatherers, a system with higher thresholds but (insignificant amounts of) points down to the lower ranks would've been better. However, exactly these point addicted people might have been the main source of CTRA's problems, which was poor racing even in higher license tiers. If a good portion of these people went away (or changed their reason for racing on CTRA) maybe we'd finally reach our goal.
Now, end of analysis and theorycraft, I think in general the point system is fine for now. The new system is far too young to draw conclusions yet, so IMO it should be left as is. Maybe for the future we could consider rewarding clean & consistent driving more, or somehow help the single seaters out if they turn out to be a problem.
Be it post counts, frags, experience points/level/stats, gold or even the good old score; if you think about it, there are millions over millions of people all around the world doing their best to increase a number stored in a database. Do you think any of the popular MMORPGs would be nearly as populated if there weren't little numbers to increase (or items with better numbers to get)?
I bet a lot of people were just going to CTRA/STCC because every other race you got rewarded with an increase of your personal number, coupled with a big reward (a level up) after you pass a certain threshold. I wouldn't be surprised if the popularity of CTRA goes down overall, now that points are harder to gain. Or let me rephrase that, I think CTRA classic will remain roughly the same, as many people already got their license before CTRA X was introduced, so the "point loss" has a much lower impact. Single seaters will IMO have the least participants, as apparently points are hardest to get there combined with the less forgiving cars (at least in higher tiers), while BnJ will explode because not only do you have to spend considerably less effort racing clean, you also get stupid amount of points stupidly easy. Basically the bigger the number after the +, the more popular.
From that perspective, the harshest thing to see in the new system is getting a "+0" after putting much effort in a clean and long race. If hypothetically CTRA wanted to keep the point gatherers, a system with higher thresholds but (insignificant amounts of) points down to the lower ranks would've been better. However, exactly these point addicted people might have been the main source of CTRA's problems, which was poor racing even in higher license tiers. If a good portion of these people went away (or changed their reason for racing on CTRA) maybe we'd finally reach our goal.
Now, end of analysis and theorycraft, I think in general the point system is fine for now. The new system is far too young to draw conclusions yet, so IMO it should be left as is. Maybe for the future we could consider rewarding clean & consistent driving more, or somehow help the single seaters out if they turn out to be a problem.
I personally don't see a problem. I'm not exactly a fast racer, my usual pace is around 3 - 4 seconds off WR pace once i've driven a few laps, which is by no means fast.
However, i was racing on the CTRA Race 1 server (I'm Bronze licenced) on Saturday and within a race or two i had made my way to the front few on the grid and i was winning races and getting podiums and the points to go with them.
So, the guys finishing in the midfield and towards the back were lapping 5 or 6 seconds slower than the guys at the front, so why should they get points? Thats 8 - 10 seconds off WR pace, thats a hell of a long time, you could crash or run off the track and still get a laptime inside that time.
Just taking part in the race surely isn't enough to earn licence points, it's not like this is a championship where you get points down to a certain position. I consider it (i may be wrong here :shrug more as a constant qualification or maybe examination of your racing skills, to prove you are worthy of a certain licence level. And the better you are, the more points you get per race to reach these licence levels.
I may be wrong, but thats how i see it, and i don't see anything wrong with it
However, i was racing on the CTRA Race 1 server (I'm Bronze licenced) on Saturday and within a race or two i had made my way to the front few on the grid and i was winning races and getting podiums and the points to go with them.
So, the guys finishing in the midfield and towards the back were lapping 5 or 6 seconds slower than the guys at the front, so why should they get points? Thats 8 - 10 seconds off WR pace, thats a hell of a long time, you could crash or run off the track and still get a laptime inside that time.
Just taking part in the race surely isn't enough to earn licence points, it's not like this is a championship where you get points down to a certain position. I consider it (i may be wrong here :shrug
more as a constant qualification or maybe examination of your racing skills, to prove you are worthy of a certain licence level. And the better you are, the more points you get per race to reach these licence levels.I may be wrong, but thats how i see it, and i don't see anything wrong with it
I agree with AndroidXP, even though he didn't really reach any sort of conclusion! I am also interested in finding out how many people abandon the system because they don't get a cookie for finishing every race, because I think it will be a lot of racers.
Sounds like the single-seater server is a bit buggy at the moment, so I don't think that should be considered when arguing about whether the points system - when working - is any good or not.
Sounds like the single-seater server is a bit buggy at the moment, so I don't think that should be considered when arguing about whether the points system - when working - is any good or not.
After an afternoon of racing on CTRA, I've realised that the points are a secondary bonus. The best thing about CTRA for me now is the standard of racing and the fun of competing against a full grid of people. 
Btw... I got a 1st place on SO1R while the X-System was down, do I still get points?
Btw... I got a 1st place on SO1R while the X-System was down, do I still get points?
some people race for points so they can race CTRA on different cars and circuits. With that respect, points are vital
Hmm maybe 106% is a bit strict, but I think having a condition like this (running within a certian % of a laptime) is good for keeping people in their proper licenses.
Like Becky said racing is more than just being able to race clean, there is also pace involved and the CTRA software reflects this. The rates might need tweaking though. Over the next week or so I will look at it and see if to me it would need changing, I think it's fairly accurate ATM though.
Sure I would love to race a slow person that knows all the rules of racing, but IMO these go hand in hand and one is increased by the other and one usually doesn't grow without the other one.
Like Becky said racing is more than just being able to race clean, there is also pace involved and the CTRA software reflects this. The rates might need tweaking though. Over the next week or so I will look at it and see if to me it would need changing, I think it's fairly accurate ATM though.
Sure I would love to race a slow person that knows all the rules of racing, but IMO these go hand in hand and one is increased by the other and one usually doesn't grow without the other one.
I tend to look at the CTRA servers each diffrently,
The classic CTRA servers are just as they were before, There are some good points to be made there if you get a decent finish whatever your licence, Then on that group of servers we have been lucky to get the GTR/GT2 server, I tend to think this is the best CTRA server currently as the racing is very close with such a varied grid, Its nice getting beaten in race by 5-6 cars but then you find out you were second in GT2! quality! again another good stash of shiny gold things,
bump n jump, Well i find this server as a great "let your hair down" server, race clean and no need to push for top places unless your looking at a podium spot, finishing on the lead lap is good for many points so why bother trying to pass that car infront of you in the final corner on the final lap, just sit back relax and take another good stash of the gold,
S-S server,
This is where the real racers cut it, the cream of the crop. To progress your licence here you will need patience and lots of practice, Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will you be a BF1 driver by the end of the week, personally i love it like this, could you imagine the fo8 or the bf1 server full up with bad drivers? Its hard enough getting em around T1 in fox's
personally i havnt scored in the S-S server as of yet....but ive been dam close with 6-7th finishes a plenty. lets hope once a few of the fast guys rank up (you know who u are) and move on to the higher tier servers us slower hotlappers will get a better chance,
All i say is bring on the challenge!
P.S GREAT job UKCT!
EDIT:- BTW im a stats junkie and i love to see points going up, It sorta gives me something to race for.. you may not understand but its the same for other games i play like BF2/2142 in those games i wont play in unranked servers as im not getting me points.. some people love stat hunting. i feel the point system is a little strict in the S-S server but live with it, that is what makes it diffrent from the other servers.
The classic CTRA servers are just as they were before, There are some good points to be made there if you get a decent finish whatever your licence, Then on that group of servers we have been lucky to get the GTR/GT2 server, I tend to think this is the best CTRA server currently as the racing is very close with such a varied grid, Its nice getting beaten in race by 5-6 cars but then you find out you were second in GT2! quality! again another good stash of shiny gold things,
bump n jump, Well i find this server as a great "let your hair down" server, race clean and no need to push for top places unless your looking at a podium spot, finishing on the lead lap is good for many points so why bother trying to pass that car infront of you in the final corner on the final lap, just sit back relax and take another good stash of the gold,
S-S server,
This is where the real racers cut it, the cream of the crop. To progress your licence here you will need patience and lots of practice, Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will you be a BF1 driver by the end of the week, personally i love it like this, could you imagine the fo8 or the bf1 server full up with bad drivers? Its hard enough getting em around T1 in fox's
personally i havnt scored in the S-S server as of yet....but ive been dam close with 6-7th finishes a plenty. lets hope once a few of the fast guys rank up (you know who u are) and move on to the higher tier servers us slower hotlappers will get a better chance,
All i say is bring on the challenge!
P.S GREAT job UKCT!
EDIT:- BTW im a stats junkie and i love to see points going up, It sorta gives me something to race for.. you may not understand but its the same for other games i play like BF2/2142 in those games i wont play in unranked servers as im not getting me points.. some people love stat hunting. i feel the point system is a little strict in the S-S server but live with it, that is what makes it diffrent from the other servers.
Why not use a percentage of overall race time rather than a percentage of lap time.
Using the race time would encourage consistent fast racing rather than just getting in 1 fast lap and then getting it to the finish line somehow.
Using the race time would encourage consistent fast racing rather than just getting in 1 fast lap and then getting it to the finish line somehow.
Off course the points are vital. I do agree fully but it needs to be in pace with the fastest on track at that moment. What is the point of getting points when you are 10 to 15 seconds off pace ?.
If your not fats enough it means youre not up yet for the GTR/GT2 or FO8/BF1 servers. There is a big gap between these servers and that is what the point system is based on.
You have to be the cream of th crop to get the points. Sure it is annoying when your 6th and just 3 sec of 5th place but they have to draw the line somewhere. But when your in 12th position you arent ready yet and have to do more practise. Like someone in this thread sayed : Rome isnt build in 1 day, it takes time to get better and so score points.
Dont get me wrong, sure we all like are license to be titanium, blue grade and international B. Me too, but if I didnt score the points I just not up for them. I have driven all the servers during beta testing. And I can tell you it isnt funny when you are seconds off pace in 1 lape. The only thing you see are tailpipes and rearlights.
I do agree that it is slightly tilted to far towards how close you can get to the alien that can get round the fastest, but from my limited time on the S-S server i would say its working quite well. Theres a few people at the front, i was making pretty regular points and was thinking it wouldnt take a huge amount of time to progress to the next level if i stuck at it.
I don't think 106% is all that harsh, tbh. The WR-benchmark for example is 103% and even I am capable of times within that benchmark and I usually don't need tons of laps to get there (at least not in the easier cars of which the FOX is definitely one).
But I guess time will tell if the system needs adjusting or not.
And in case I didn't voice my appreciation for all the hard work the CTRA-staff has done: You guys are marvels.
But I guess time will tell if the system needs adjusting or not.
And in case I didn't voice my appreciation for all the hard work the CTRA-staff has done: You guys are marvels
.This is actually a very good suggestion. It's actually one we cant just drop and implement as it needs a whole new set of background data and stats tracking etc, but I like this general idea. There's some complications to figure out - pitstops in longer races etc. whether we'll even have those or not I dont know. It's certainly something for me to get my grey matter pondering on.
Yeah I think 106% isn't too difficult at all. That would reward someone who laps at 1:24.8 when the WR is 1:20.
103% can be a challenge on some combos, depending on how hardcore the WR is, but should be achieveable really.
I have yet to try CTRA-X, waiting for the bugs and rush to see it first to be over, and the fact that my youngest first academy soccer tournament was this weekend any way. But from what I have read the quoted part above is what concerns me. I put in bold the thing this "new" scoring system, I think, will promote. And that is a sad thing indeed.
So let me get this straight, you have to finish in the top 5 and be within 106% of the WR? A WR that was set under non race conditions with a setup that wouldn't last 3 laps in a real race? <-- this will promote hotlapping to the most extreme possible.
So lets say I finish 2nd to a guy that ran 106.5% of the WR every lap, and I was at 106.8%. Cause for the 106.5% and 106.8% is the constant battle between the two of us, so we could not pull off the one "hotlap" we needed to get the "points". Am I the only one that sees the problem with this? Wouldn't a 106% of the best lap time for that race be better for getting the points? Or 106% of the best lap recorded on that server/car/track combo, and not LFSworld?
Ugh I shutter at the thought of having to race against hotlappers.
I bet the formula to add that in is a little tedious
This is my problem.... im not a fast hotlapper, never have been never will be but i can get a decent midpack finish with my consistancy, unfortunatly this is probrably why i dont score much,
Ive finished in races in 6 place and not recived points but the next race the racer who finished in 6th got points due to there faster "hotlap" in the race, It feels like the points were stole from me because i was trying to be consistant to finish the race and not bin it trying for that illlusive fast lap.
Ive finished in races in 6 place and not recived points but the next race the racer who finished in 6th got points due to there faster "hotlap" in the race, It feels like the points were stole from me because i was trying to be consistant to finish the race and not bin it trying for that illlusive fast lap.
would be simple enough to do if you were just to ignore the laps during which the driver was in the pits and the first one ... should be good enough to figure out if the driver has a stable quick pace or not (mean and variance)
Thanks for having a look at the idea of a percentage of the race time rather than a lap time Becky.
As Leadtail (and others) have pointed out, most people can expect to get within 106% of WR time after a bit of practice, but getting within 106% of WR times in a race, with tyre and weight considerations (don't forget...WR's in TBO class DO NOT have any added weight!), and also, on quite a few CTRA configs, wind can play a decisive part as well. This is before you have to consider the 'battles' that are going on most of the time.
All these factors are not present during a hotlap, so why use these times as a base for the points during a race?
OK, sorry, I made the same mistake as Leadtail, and assumed that the base time was taken from LFSW.
Apologies!
As Leadtail (and others) have pointed out, most people can expect to get within 106% of WR time after a bit of practice, but getting within 106% of WR times in a race, with tyre and weight considerations (don't forget...WR's in TBO class DO NOT have any added weight!), and also, on quite a few CTRA configs, wind can play a decisive part as well. This is before you have to consider the 'battles' that are going on most of the time.
All these factors are not present during a hotlap, so why use these times as a base for the points during a race?
OK, sorry, I made the same mistake as Leadtail, and assumed that the base time was taken from LFSW.
Apologies!
@Leadtail: Yours is a prime example of why people shouldn't contribute to a debate without first arming themselves with information, lol. This 'hotlap' set that wont last 3 laps has to last as much as 15 laps - as times, including CTRA 'hotlaps' are only registered at race finish.
I'm not a hotlapper either, I love racing, and I designed the points system to promote competitive racing. Yes the bar is high, and for general information: The algorythm is the same on both the race and single seater licences, the difference is the standard of competition.
I have looked at some results, not enough yet to solidify my opinion, but what i've seen so far is that those most vocal against the points system aren't doing 110% pace or even 115%, but nearer 120%. A pace which I would consider to be novice and which I fully expect the same drivers to find tumbles into range as they gain more affinity with the various tracks.
Whilst I accept that no system that tries to award a tangeable reward to an intangeable thing will ever be perfect, I do not think that the strength of the argument raised is justified by the evidence I have collated so far.
I will keep my eye on things and see how things develop, but i'm looking more at the data than the squabblings, and there's a reason for this. As Leadtail demonstrates above, it's possible to sound plausable on a forum post - but the evidence presents solid fact.
The points give access to the higher servers, those on the higher servers begged us to raise the bar and protect the system from time decay, thats the only tweak, and we've done it by multiplying the factors together rather than adding, so that both position AND pace is required, not just time on the server.
EDIT: Just to make one point of confusion clear, we use the CTRA lap record, NOT the hotlap WR from LFS World. Although whether thats a good thing or not I dont know ... I barely ever see a league race where the WR isnt beaten myself. It just isnt beaten by me .
I'm not a hotlapper either, I love racing, and I designed the points system to promote competitive racing. Yes the bar is high, and for general information: The algorythm is the same on both the race and single seater licences, the difference is the standard of competition.
I have looked at some results, not enough yet to solidify my opinion, but what i've seen so far is that those most vocal against the points system aren't doing 110% pace or even 115%, but nearer 120%. A pace which I would consider to be novice and which I fully expect the same drivers to find tumbles into range as they gain more affinity with the various tracks.
Whilst I accept that no system that tries to award a tangeable reward to an intangeable thing will ever be perfect, I do not think that the strength of the argument raised is justified by the evidence I have collated so far.
I will keep my eye on things and see how things develop, but i'm looking more at the data than the squabblings, and there's a reason for this. As Leadtail demonstrates above, it's possible to sound plausable on a forum post - but the evidence presents solid fact.
The points give access to the higher servers, those on the higher servers begged us to raise the bar and protect the system from time decay, thats the only tweak, and we've done it by multiplying the factors together rather than adding, so that both position AND pace is required, not just time on the server.
EDIT: Just to make one point of confusion clear, we use the CTRA lap record, NOT the hotlap WR from LFS World. Although whether thats a good thing or not I dont know
... I barely ever see a league race where the WR isnt beaten myself. It just isnt beaten by me .I actually don't think that WR times are used for the comparison (bah, confirmed above - must type faster) - I think it's the lap record set on the server. I was on KY2 with a couple of guys yesterday and saw an RB4 driver get awarded 15 or 20 points for finishing last but setting a server record of 2:07.
Presumably nobody had run the RB4 on that circuit since the system was launched on Friday - 2:07 is a good four or five seconds off a front-running pace.
Presumably nobody had run the RB4 on that circuit since the system was launched on Friday - 2:07 is a good four or five seconds off a front-running pace.
But thats the point, you should not have to be a "hotlapper" to get points. Most "hotlappers" make crappy racers because they only know how to run one line on the track, the "hotlap" line. And usually that sucks for you if you are on "their hotlap line".
So best race strategy is get to top five, in any means necessary, back off the guy in front of you, run a "hotlap" to ensure points, and then just maintain your place to the finish. Is that racing?
Edit for Becky:
As I stated I have yet to try out your new system, but I have not seen anywhere until your post that the 106% everyone was talking about was not the LSFworld WR. So you do use the record for that server/car/track as I stated would be a better way of doing it. I look forward to giving this a try, and thank you for the effort you have put into this. The old STCC was one of the reasons I got back into LFS not so long ago.
The "most hotlappers make crappy racers" argument is wearing a bit thin. yeah there might be a couple of people who just barge people out the way, but for the majority that isnt the case. For example, Huppis is one of the cleanest and best racers your ever likely to compete against, yet he's incredibly fast.
points system under X
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