Hi, my first ever post, just downloaded and bought a license over the weekend. Really loving that the heart of the game is the physics. As far as I'm concerned, graphics are what make you say wow at the start but don't keep me playing a week later, good underlying principals such as the setup/handeling of the cars more than make up for what I think are decent graphics anyway. Been after a good race sim for ages but all feel too arcady till now. I've gone ordered a g25, never had a wheel before, can't wait for it to arrive, impulse buy but really liking the game and looking forward to really getting into it.

But to the point, real maps are obviously a big loss to the game, I know I'm only new, but just even from the variety aspect of the game. I understand why they aren't in there, money for the license & development time to create them (maybe other reasons too?). But there seems a rather obvious solution to both problems, a full map editor for LFS.

I run a very well known and extermely popular Counter-Strike Source (a FPS game) server. There is an excellent editor for maps in it and while some custom maps produced originally were rather poor, people are now coming out with some spectacular maps, many well exceeding the quality of the standard maps that ship with the game.

It seems an obvious solution to me to allow for custom maps. It will allow the community to create 'real maps' while the developers won't have to spend money on a license or development time on creating the maps themselves. No doubt there would be rubbish custom maps as there are in Counter-Strike, but they won't be played as users will hate them and so server owners will generally keep to the high quality ones only (as I do on our Counter-Strike server). A simple system where on joining a server, the map is downloaded from the server to the client, it's how it works in many games, wouldn't cost the developers anything in bandwidth.

The only cost to the developers will be time in developing the editor, but I imagine they already have one they used to build the maps themselves. It really could make a huge difference as some astounding maps will surely surface (even if just 1 amazing map came out of it all it'd be worth it!) and some maps will become known as the definitive version of some real maps too no doubt. I'm getting used to the LFS maps, but I imagine a lot of you guys would still really love to race around some real tracks too. For new players it would also make them more likely to buy S2 license I imagine, as they would feel more at home being able to play some tracks they know from other games. There would no doubt be an increased chance of new players giving LFS a proper go and older players some new challanges to rise up to.

I've done some searching and its come up a little, but you guys think it'll ever happen? seems like a no brainer to me... but I might be missing something? If quality control is a huge concern then custom maps could be limited to submissions to the developers and once a month they accept 1 map from the community and add it (if a good enough one exists). Long standing community members/organisations could pre-screen submissions. A develoer spending one day a month reviewing map submissions could be time well spent! Knowing the quality of work produced by some of the Counter-Strike community I have no doubts what so ever the LFS community could produce some astounding work! Why not tap into that resource??

Oh and hi all, hope I don't get flamed out of it for this post! Just seems very odd to me its not already there.

Quote from Crazy Horse :

I run a very well known and extermely popular Counter-Strike Source (a FPS game) server.

That's just about where I stopped reading.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

That's just about where I stopped reading.

Are you stuck in dickhead mode or something?

The reason there is no map editor is because the developers don't see it as a priority. It's been requested quite a lot in the forum (along with new community-developed cars) but Scawen - for whatever reason - doesn't seem to be keen on incorporating stuff like this. Or at least not yet, when there are so many important things in the simulation that need doing first.

One downside is that mod content creates a situation where a player has to source the files needed to play it - we would no longer have a self-contained sim where you can just start it up and be playing online in seconds. Plus there has been a lot of very poor-quality content released for rFactor (and Counter-Strike, for that matter), so it's quite likely that we'd see a similar situation here, with mountains of garbage to wade through in order to find the odd gold nugget.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

That's just about where I stopped reading.

sounds like you have some sand in your... sandals?

Counter Strike is a good example of how a gaming community (if given the opportunity) can produce four hundred and sixty-two million unplayable maps.

If the majority of a gaming community like CS has can't even create a balanced and fair map design which considers the important elements of gameplay pertinent to the genre and gaming environment, then how will this gaming community produce worthwhile tracks and track environments?

Making a track environment and good track is way harder than making maps for CS. It's difficult for many reasons that CS map makers don't need to consider. I am very confident that (if given the opportunity) our community would be able to produce a never ending supply of mediocre content that doesn't consider the subtleties of racetrack construction and design. Even in real life many race tracks are poorly designed, by experts.

I'm sure some enthusiasts from our community could create some marvelous and exiting content either individually or as a part of a joint project but, I must confess, I have faith in about one in one thousand of you to deliver the goods.
I suppose you could say that I am concerned about letting the public add content to LFS, especially since it is still being developed. If we had a 3D track modeler/editor ("editor" is so inappropriate a name for what is really quite an involved task such as creating track environments), it would need to be updated each time Scawen made certain changes to the sim or to his own modeler. There are so many aspects of LFS that could still be evolved and changed that a "map editor" is probably not a good idea, at least yet.

Now, the topic of how to manage all of that public content without diluting the whole community-following of LFS is an altogether different topic which I am not prepared to discuss at this time.

Quote from Gabkicks :

sounds like you have some sand in your... sandals?

please ... no more de_dust i cant take it anymore

LFS doesn't have enough players to support some of the combo's it has already - adding extra tracks will do nothing but stretch away the community even more.

The other reason is in game like rFactor they do this, and you can't just open rF and hop on a server and get a race in 30 secs like you can with LFS, you have to hunt around dodgy forums to find the track, and then the right version because Nuerbergerwrong v1.12 is too new etc.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Are you stuck in dickhead mode or something?

No, he's only educated enough to be able to read that far.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

That's just about where I stopped reading.

Haha your one of those who likes to bump his post count by not reading a topic, picking up on a few words and then adding a smart comment that a 3 year old could come up with? hey if that does it for you mate then more power to you... amazes me you would rather make pointless posts like that than something more entertaining... I guess you must lack something better to do... poor you .

I like a lot of different types of games, most people can appricate the different skills required to play each, but I guess for some they are set in a mode of LFS is the be all and end all of life, no other games no other game types, just LFS... I donno, worried me a bit when I saw that type attitude a lot on the forums, but back to the point...

If you look on CS.S server list, you will see 99% of the maps are the same few. There tends to be a mix of the more popular standard maps and a select few custom maps. While in the original post I admitted there is litrally thousands of rubbsh maps, you'll never actually come accross them 99.9% of the time, as they aren't played. Server owners don't tend to put rubbsh on their servers, if they do their server is empty so its not an issue tbh. I only mention my CSS experience as I have a great deal of experience with custom content, in managing it, creating it and playing it.

When it comes to the editor, I would wonder how the developers made the current maps, surely they already have a program to create them. Even if it was rough round the edges, if they gave the community a go with it you would probably find teams forming to create particular maps as grand projects. There appears to be crazy die hard LFS fans around here, why not allow them to contribute their time and effort into a project everyone can benefit from.

Custom content could be on a submission to devs only basis, only really top quality maps could be considered. I really don't see the draw back, there would be very limited amount of maps up to standards submitted. I wonder why one (more?) of the developers will spend a long time creating new maps for S3, when there are others who could possibly exceed the developers abilities in this respect (due to much greater resources and experience actually playing LFS) and do the work for free. There is a huge oppertunity being lost.

You guys aren't even a little disappointed knowing if an editor was released a year ago, a project to create an amazing track could have been finishing up just about now? You could have had a whole new top quality map released tonight...

Quote from Jakg :

LFS doesn't have enough players to support some of the combo's it has already - adding extra tracks will do nothing but stretch away the community even more..

That's the main reason I guess, in case you want a server with folks allways online on your combo, you must join FOX@BL1 or GTR@AS National fanboys.

I'm not going to wade in here and say one camp is right or wrong on this issue, I can understand both sides.

On the one hand you have those who want to have a consistent, accessible experience, especially online. Now, with the system the way it is you can click on any server and be in the game instantly, without having to worry about having the correct track/car/version/add-ons installed for it to work. While many FPS games will allow you to download items missing from your install before joining the server, this may not be workable in a racing sim, looking at the size of some mods available for the likes of rFactor. Even then I have given up on joining many FPS servers due to the long download time of ''WAZZUPSOUND.WAV'' or some other ''unnecessary'' file required by the host.

Then there is the 'modding crowd'. If anything shows the hit and miss nature of modding it is rFactor. There are several fantastic mods out there, which are unfortunately set amongst a backdrop of inferior ones. Also, for a new player, sourcing the relevant files often leads to trawling numerous internet forums, particularly with the download limit present at rfactorcentral. Also, due to the sheer number of mods available, the rfactor online community has become fragmented, with no obvious continuity of track/car/mod etc present between servers. This fragmentation is not a problem in FPS games, due to the sheer number of players. BUT in the comparatively miniscule sim racing community it can lead to the online portion of the game being uninhabited except for set times such as leagues etc, leaving ''pick up and play'' racers out in the cold.

Don't get me wrong, rFactor has some great mods, and as a single player game it is worth considering. But if you want to race online, LFS seems to be the only way to go. To acheive this Scawen has had to make some sacrifices, and if one of those is to limit user created content then so be it IMHO..

Perhaps if we could get rFactor and LFS to mate, then the resulting offspring would be the zenith of sim racing?! BTW check out this months AutoSimSport, it has an article which covers this subject at length..

Quote from Origamiboy :

.....Perhaps if we could get rFactor and LFS to mate, then the resulting offspring would be the zenith of sim racing?! ....

Nah, what we need is GTHD or GT5 to mate with LFS. Mother of all Gods of Sims.

To the OP. All topics regarding mods, tracks, cars or eye candy either fall on deaf ears or get flamed by fanboys convinced that LFS is perfect as it is.
Not much you can do there.

I'd love to see a tools available for LFS, but not any time soon, and not in the same way rF did it. They had their tools available straight off (afaik), before the game even had a chance to establish itself in the simracing world. We're all familiar with the results.

I think the key to releasing creation tools for LFS might be to mirror the completely unintentional GPL situation: GPL wasn't made with mods in mind so the community has basically had to hack the code apart and scratch-build their own tools. As a result, GPL has over 500+ tracks available and two awesome season mods ('65 and '69) with more in progress. Each car and track is a real work of art (and a testament to obsessive compulsive disorder), everything goes through a vetting process to ensure it's the best it can be and editors always make sure they're not doubling up on someone else's project (the advantages of a small, dedicated community I guess).

So, the answer is to make modding for LFS so diabolically difficult, time-consuming and painstaking that only the most dedicated and talented people will even bother trying, which will ensure the highest quality and attention to detail - and long waits for stuff to come out

@gohfeld: I don't see any flaming here, or anyone convinced that LFS is perfect I do, however, see concern about LFS mirroring the rF situation, and the great desire for LFS to retain its high standards...

Quote from gohfeld23 :

To the OP. All topics regarding mods, tracks, cars or eye candy either fall on deaf ears or get flamed by fanboys convinced that LFS is perfect as it is.
Not much you can do there.

Calling people fanboys is about as narrow minded and ignorant as you think they are

I'm not sure what I think about mods, I can see the good and bad things about them so I'm sitting on the fence at the moment. It would be best to wait for LFS final to be out as well before and of these serious modding requests.

...and if you're looking into track mods so soon, LFS will not hold your attention.

Thanks to the constructive replies. I'm kind of limited in what I can do till my wheel comes in the next day or 2, playing with mouse keyboard isn't so easy (particularly applying power). I understand this is a very skilled game and i'm looking forward to getting into it, just been spending many many hours reading the forums and it seems a lost oppertunity.

I totaly get where your coming from keeping consistancy and quality. Moding of cars doesn't interest me so much as I'm barely used to the current ones tbh. This was just as an initial impression of someone new to the game, but with many many years experience in other online games and communities.

I could just imagine a team of 5 or 6 guys working for a couple of months to create an increadable accurate recreation of Nurburgring etc. I've spent I guess 12-15 hours reading the forums over the last few days and the dedication of the people here shines through so clearly, would be great to make full use of that. I don't suggest millions of mods/tracks, just the ability for the really dedicated to create master pieces and add to what already seems to me to be a great game.

I'm a million miles from being bored witht his game, I've not even started and I'm sure I'll grow to love some of the current tracks, just seems odd to have potentially a huge amount of free high quality work disregarded by the developers.

I've not played rfactor, but in CS.S there is no real issue in having the correct downloads. You join a server, any files you don't have you auto download from the server, with today's broadband connections they are generally quite fast to download, especially if custom models aren't used, its a non issue for most, no visiting web sites or anything like that.

Again thanks to those who replied constructively, I can certainly see where your coming from.

I have to admit some of the circuits feel a bit homely in LFS. South City for example - probably my favourite environment because I have a short attention span and I need a circuit that keeps me on my toes - but it looks old and tired now. Hopefully Eric is working on that right now.

Having received RACE for free with my graphics card I've also realised that I do actually miss having real-world content in LFS. I pretty much never play RACE (despite the Caterham expansion) because it's a bit shit, frankly, but it's nice to have an opportunity to run circuits like Brno and Estoril. I would much rather take an LX6 out there than a RACE-modelled CSR 320.

I wasn't trying to be mean when I said fanboys. FFS I'm one of them. I'm just one of those who believe that LFS can be so much more then it is already.

Apologies if I sounded insulting.

And I completely agree with the modding fall-down of rF. But as already mentioned, GPL was really hard to mod that all the mods are quality add-ons that took quite a bit of ingenuity to make. And it really shows.
I'm either hoping for something like this or official expansion of the game. I guess it'll take waiting a few years for S3 to finalize.