Quote from Knight_Atack :

Indycar split into IRL and CART. CART became ChampCar (World Series) not too long ago, a few years, and still has this name. The IRL = Indy Racing League, holding 2 sub leagues, the IndyCar Series (Indy Racing League IndyCar Series) and the IndyPro Series (who drives on more road courses and a few less ovals than IndyCar does).

Ah, I didn't know about the IndyPro series, I thought it was just one series (ICS). But I was right about CART/ChampCar after all.

I'm not an idiot all the time

W/R/T the original post, it's 'cause NASCAR is a disparaging term. That's pretty much it.

Quote from nihil :

I've been sort of fascinated by Nascar/Oval racing recently. Its always had that redneck image, but at the same time its really geeky - all about stats.

All american sports are dominated by stats. Even when they play sports the rest of us play, they are compelled to track all manner of stats. Watch coverage of an MLS football game one day - the commentators produce stats for things that don't even have names in the rest of the world!

Quote from nihil :

I've been sort of fascinated by Nascar/Oval racing recently. Its always had that redneck image, but at the same time its really geeky - all about stats. This little device seems to reinforce that idea:

http://www.nextel.com/en/promotions/racing/fanview.shtml

I guess its something about American masculinity....

Anyway, I'd like to officially confess to having really enjoyed watching the Sheetrock 400 recently. I've no real understanding of the nuances of the racing, but it was great watching Dale Earnhardt wrestling the car round when the power assist went on his steering.

The coverage helped, offering some dynamic footage showing how loose the cars were lap after lap... Don't think I'll make a special effort to follow the series, but I understand more of why people are into it.

Yeah i saw the Earnhardt junior thing aswell, it was brilliant watching the onboard footage, was really properly enjoying himself.

and btw, F1 races have exactly the same type of thing as that little display.

http://www.kangaroo.tv/

Im assuming its the same thing as the nascar one?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

All american sports are dominated by stats. Even when they play sports the rest of us play, they are compelled to track all manner of stats. Watch coverage of an MLS football game one day - the commentators produce stats for things that don't even have names in the rest of the world!

They try to make it more interesting--otherwise there wouldn't be commentators at all. Boring all by itself doesn't make good ratings. :P

on topic: never heard anyone call oval racing NASCAR

off topic: sounds TO ME that car racing the way it is in USA - drag, NASCAR, IRL etc. - are more for the show, more for entertaining the public than anything else.. you don't care who's racing (even because there's a LOT of cars), as long as they stay close and crash eventually. European car racing seems to be more on the pilots/mechanics/skills side...
remember: there should be exceptions in both places

Quote from de Souza :

on topic: never heard anyone call oval racing NASCAR

off topic: sounds TO ME that car racing the way it is in USA - drag, NASCAR, IRL etc. - are more for the show, more for entertaining the public than anything else.. you don't care who's racing (even because there's a LOT of cars), as long as they stay close and crash eventually. European car racing seems to be more on the pilots/mechanics/skills side...
remember: there should be exceptions in both places

An excellent observation!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

All american sports are dominated by stats. Even when they play sports the rest of us play, they are compelled to track all manner of stats. Watch coverage of an MLS football game one day - the commentators produce stats for things that don't even have names in the rest of the world!

That's because we are very sophisticated in our understanding of sports so we can expand the envelope with more data. Plus, our announcers are stuffed shirts who like to hear themselves talk.

If you do look at any really good racing team, they are obsessed with stats too, just a different kind. Engine performance, tires, suspension, split times, etc. It is actually the same thing with other sports' stats.

NASCAR is NASCAR. F1 is F1. The thing about both of them, and it is also true of other sports, you have to get into the history, teams, drivers, rules, and the technical aspects, to really enjoy the sport fully. Just 20 minutes of a baseball game can be very boring. But if you follow the team and the sport and understand the strategy and all the little nuances that makes it great, then you have a great time.

You can't just sit and watch 20 minutes of a racing series or even a whole race, and really say anything about it beyond your dislike for it. There is a lot that goes into all forms of racing and you have to spend the time to understand it all before you can really enjoy it.

NASCAR style oval racing is very challenging. If any of you have driven the old NASCAR 2003 game with a bunch of good drivers, you would know that. It is also a lot of fun.

I don't like NASCAR because they are the 800lb gorilla that dominates racing in the US where I would rather see more money and talent going into other series. But again, that is just my opinion.

Oh, and I have never heard anybody in LFS refer to oval racing as NASCAR. It is always oval racing. And then somebody brings up NASCAR and how sucky it is and we end up with a thread like this. Which I am enjoying immensely btw

Quote from Hallen :

That's because we are very sophisticated in our understanding of sports so we can expand the envelope with more data. Plus, our announcers are stuffed shirts who like to hear themselves talk.

If you do look at any really good racing team, they are obsessed with stats too, just a different kind. Engine performance, tires, suspension, split times, etc. It is actually the same thing with other sports' stats.

NASCAR is NASCAR. F1 is F1. The thing about both of them, and it is also true of other sports, you have to get into the history, teams, drivers, rules, and the technical aspects, to really enjoy the sport fully. Just 20 minutes of a baseball game can be very boring. But if you follow the team and the sport and understand the strategy and all the little nuances that makes it great, then you have a great time.

You can't just sit and watch 20 minutes of a racing series or even a whole race, and really say anything about it beyond your dislike for it. There is a lot that goes into all forms of racing and you have to spend the time to understand it all before you can really enjoy it.

NASCAR style oval racing is very challenging. If any of you have driven the old NASCAR 2003 game with a bunch of good drivers, you would know that. It is also a lot of fun.

THANK YOU.

Quote from mrodgers :

Every time people start this, they post opinion as fact.

I don't mean to derail your argument, but opinions are not wrong. Opinions by their very nature can never be wrong. They are a person's particular view on a subject. People don't say "I think that I like NASCAR, but I can't really be sure" or "I probably don't like drag racing, what do you think?".

If you can accept that a person's opinion is just their own personal view based on their knowledge and experience of the topic there is no reason for anyone to get personal about it. But people often do take other people's opinions personally, which is silly.

Person 1: "I don't like drinking beer"
Person 2: "You are wrong, beer is great to drink!"
Person 1: "Not for me, I prefer whiskey"
Person 2: "You don't know what you are talking about, beer is much better to drink than whiskey, you don't know anything about it!"

etc..

Quote from de Souza :

on topic: never heard anyone call oval racing NASCAR

off topic: sounds TO ME that car racing the way it is in USA - drag, NASCAR, IRL etc. - are more for the show, more for entertaining the public than anything else..

Uh, yes. Racing is entertainment. All racing is. Even in Europe.
If you are trying to say it is dumbed down racing and somewhat fake, like the WWF for example, then you might be partially right when talking about NASCAR, but overall you are still wrong.

Quote from de Souza :

you don't care who's racing (even because there's a LOT of cars),

Uh, no. The drivers are the stars, especially in NASCAR. You root for a driver. You ask a NASCAR fan who drives the number 43 car and they will tell you who it is.

Quote from de Souza :

as long as they stay close and crash eventually.

That is part of the whole NASCAR thing. There are a lot of cars and they are bunched together closely. If one driver makes a mistake, or a tire gets cut down, it will lead to a big crash. It is the nature of the beast. Does it bring a certain kind of fan to that form of racing? Yes it does. But it is not the reason that long-term NASCAR fans go to the races.

Quote from de Souza :

European car racing seems to be more on the pilots/mechanics/skills side...
remember: there should be exceptions in both places

Well, in this case, the exceptions make the rule then. Many people's perceptions of US racing is only based on NASCAR. We do have other racing, although not quite as prolific as you see in Europe.

We have CHAMP car, Atlantic, Star Mazda, Mazda MX cup (really fun stuff), World Challenge, Formula BMW, Formula TR, USTCC, Porsche Cup, Grand AM Rolex and Koni Challenge, and my absolute favorite ALMS, home of the Audi R10, C6 Corvette, and many other wonderful cars and teams (who generally do very well at Le Mans) and big name drivers from all over the world . We also have more club racing than you can shake a stick at. None of the above mentioned series race on ovals. They are all road course based series. (and I am sure I missed a few. That was just off the top of my head)

Maybe this thread should be closed before the flames turn up.

Quote from de Souza :

on topic: never heard anyone call oval racing NASCAR

off topic: sounds TO ME that car racing the way it is in USA - drag, NASCAR, IRL etc. - are more for the show, more for entertaining the public than anything else.. you don't care who's racing (even because there's a LOT of cars), as long as they stay close and crash eventually. European car racing seems to be more on the pilots/mechanics/skills side...
remember: there should be exceptions in both places

I disagree, actually. North American racing is mostly about the drivers. European racing seems to be mostly about the racing itself.

Quote from Hallen :

Uh, yes. Racing is entertainment. All racing is. Even in Europe.

I thought it was about R&D to help mankind in their daily lives. Entertaining, of course, but not strictly entertainment.

I suppose it could be likened to something like the space program. Don't tell me that's not entertaining--in fact, those [launch] events draw large crowds. (Whether or not the space program is an utter waste is beside the point--it's not "entertainment.")

P.S. the guy who posted that video happens to have a slew of great rally vids.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

What kind of lunatic cooks do you have over there?!?

i suppose its the famous american cooking skills which came over there with the brits

Quote from wark :

I thought it was about R&D to help mankind in their daily lives.

No, it has always been about racing, exposure for sponsors (regularly since the '50s) and excitement. R&D is just a by-product. Since TV began showing motor racing regularly it has been about sponsorship exposure through entertainment. That's one reason why racing has suffered from stupid rules and regulations in the past twenty years or so, the organisers keep trying to woo the fans instead of concentrating on the racing. The fans for the most part don't even understand what they are really watching.

Quote from wark :

I thought it was about R&D to help mankind in their daily lives. Entertaining, of course, but not strictly entertainment.

no thats just what some stupid f1 teams want to turn it into nowerdays
youre not so wrong on the entertainment side though ... but its mostly about entertaining the drivers

Quote from Shotglass :

i suppose its the famous american cooking skills which came over there with the brits

Might I remind you that your own country's contribution to the culinary world was fermented cabbage.

Quote from wark :

An excellent observation!

That "observation" couldn't be more wrong. Adding to what the others said. Europeans racing tend to focus less on the drivers and more on the racing/cars/teams. I mean in F1 drivers constantly swap in and out (with the exception of the F1 stars) that unless they do something miraculous or make a fatal mistake, we really dont remember them.

Where as in NASCAR, the drivers have a more stable position. Every single driver EVERY SINGLE DRIVER enrolled in NASCAR has their own personal fans and people go to the races to see their favorite driver win or do well.

People who watch NASCAR for the crashes will be very disappointed. Contrary to popular belief in europe, spectacular NASCAR crashes doesnt happen too often. People see it more for the racing.

I've said this over and over again to the point where I'm blue in the face (no pun intended ). But OVALS PROVIDE EXCITING AND CLOSE RACING. Because the track is simple and the cars are some what even compared to the formulas, this make 3-wide 20 cars within 2 seconds of each other type of racing more common. In fact it's rare to see a oval where there wont be 3 wide racing (AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES NASCAR EXCITING IMO).

The giant pack style racing is really run to watch and race in. Just think, 30 cars within 5 seconds all fighting for position.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Might I remind you that your own country's contribution to the culinary world was fermented cabbage.

and the beer you need to survive the taste !

Quote from Gunn :

R&D is just a by-product.

Couldn't have said it better myself. R&D has basically come about as a way to give yourself a competative advantage over your rivals. The greatest advances are made as a result of competition, as are the greatest blunders.

I love racing

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Quote from thisnameistaken :

Might I remind you that your own country's contribution to the culinary world was fermented cabbage.

döner imbiss ftw

Quote from lizardfolk :

I've said this over and over again to the point where I'm blue in the face (no pun intended ). But OVALS PROVIDE EXCITING AND CLOSE RACING. Because the track is simple and the cars are some what even compared to the formulas, this make 3-wide 20 cars within 2 seconds of each other type of racing more common. In fact it's rare to see a oval where there wont be 3 wide racing (AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES NASCAR EXCITING IMO).

Most ovals are much much wider than road courses so going 3 wide isn't an issue, they also seem to result in more big crashes from completely brainless attempts at going 3 wide. Now when Minis and Caterhams go 3 wide that's a bit more exciting

Quote :

The giant pack style racing is really run to watch and race in. Just think, 30 cars within 5 seconds all fighting for position.

But that is also engineered to happen throughout the race by putting out the pace car for absolutely anything and allowing the field to group up and unlap themselves.

Quote from Gunn :

No, it has always been about racing, exposure for sponsors (regularly since the '50s) and excitement. R&D is just a by-product. Since TV began showing motor racing regularly it has been about sponsorship exposure through entertainment. That's one reason why racing has suffered from stupid rules and regulations in the past twenty years or so, the organisers keep trying to woo the fans instead of concentrating on the racing. The fans for the most part don't even understand what they are really watching.

I agree with Gunn, also I think that how for example Nascar is made is much better entertainment that what we have in europe, most european series seem to be somewhere between racing and entertainment, bit lost, imo.

It is real pity that only few big sports have worldwide coverage, like F1 and Nascar, there is so much more which are far more concentrated to racing itself and for me those lesser series have been more interesting, just hard to find any good to watch as those are not usually even broadcasted.