They don't want the devs to do "what they want". They just suggest a way to improve the product faster.
Now it would just be nice if people around here could realise that LFS IS a product. There seems to be some kind of denial of that when I read things like "you don't understand what LFS is about". Yes everyone does, everyone knows there's something behind LFS other than money as opposed to other titles, but that doesn't make it something else than a product in the game industry.
LFS so far does very good for a 3 men show, but I, like others, believe it might be time to get someone else to join the show, a coder probably. Maybe part time I don't know and ideally from this community so he understands that "spirit of LFS" we hear so much about. The thing is that what I see coming in the future is an opponent sim that would have the same kind of features of LFS like tire deformation, a great mp code, great physics, synthesized sounds, a LFSW counterpart and other things, but that would have been made in about a year's time by a company of 40 persons and therefore would include more complete sounds and a DX9 (or maybe DX10 by then) gfx engine as well as, for example, support for 30+ cars in a race. If that happened, it would kind of be the same thing as LFS S3, but right now. Only downpoint would be them devs probably not taking part in the community......but then again you'd be surprised to know in the modding community of rF we chat with the devs very often....and I believe they listen to us for their next patches.

I wont waste space by quoting and repeating the devs here in this post, I would say go back and read post number 31 (i think) again, it answers all the questions...

Physics... To be honest for most racers who actually have fun racing online with others, its not noticable that there needs to be changes. LFS has many communities and many many leagues and arranged races...

The point Im making is that for the hardcore fans im sure when things come doesnt matter, or perhaps thats just me..?

I don't care how many sims ISI shoves into the market, none of them will displace LFS on my hard drive. Sure, I'd love to have a Pantera in LFS. Sure, I'd love to have Laguna Seca in LFS. Sure, I'd love to have fully 3D corner workers, cheering crowds, etc. But NONE of those things are as important as "feel" in a sim. And, quite frankly, no other sim even comes close to the feel in LFS. I've tried GTR, GTL, etc. and nothing else even comes close. I love old muscle cars and would like nothing more than to drive door to door in a '65 Cobra or an old Mustang. But the problem is that no car or track is fun when you can't feel what the car is doing. Every ISI sim I've ever tried has absolutely HORRIBLE feedback which no amount of tweaking can seem to fix.

netKar Pro has been mentioned a few times as a competitor to LFS. While I think it will be a fine product, I sure don't see it stealing away too many people. Three cars (all open wheelers) and two tracks...please. I wouldn't consider it a competitor at all until it gets some tin tops and another 10 tracks. And "just wait for the mods" is not good enough. Most "mods" in the sim world are subpar and take too long to arrive. Not to mention they fragment the user base and cause all sorts of compatibility problems.

I think I'll stick around here and wait for LFS to slowly improve. It's already better than anything else on the market. Once grip, aero, sound, etc get some improvements I personally feel it will be light years ahead of the competition. And I give a ton of credit to the devs for doing their own thing and doing it well. Good job, guys!

I would just like to know one thing regarding this whole comparison. What is netKar, I searched around the internet, found the latest demo, NO DOWNLOAD - it's gone!! Is it dead? Is it even going to come close to LFS or any of the other sim's + from what I've seen, that netKar looks like Racer, which wasn't much fun after a while. So as of now, I don't see netKar affecting LFS, rFactor's mp isn't as accessible or big as of yet, GTL is the only real threat, but it's more expensive and requires a MUCH more powerful computer. Mine is pretty crappy so I am enjoying LFS all i want, versus GTL which I wouldn't even try on my comp. So for me, I would love updates and news more often, but right now, I can wait - and am having the time of my life!!

I know this could go a way off-topic but still..

I see the "physics" like this: LFS is a (or "the" ) game and games tend to have their own "physics", set of laws that govern the borders where the game can be played. Game's laws are kind of global set, where each individual player carves subsets to suit their "needs". If grip is low at low speeds, then it is: it's player's concern to take that into notice if she/he wants to be competitive within the game's global laws.

Simulation can't be the reality, because then it wouldn't be simulation anymore. Mainly it's in player's head and the outlines of the game aren't actually that important. At least I've (nearly) fallen of my chair when crashing in Pit Stop 2 and also when I've been deep into fighting positions in LFS-race and crashing suddenly. I know this can provoke, but at least I'm hooked if any game offers that "magic" that gets me into the Zone and can't be described.

LFS is an ongoing project. I accept that. LFS isn't my project. I accept that too. I accept everything that belongs to LFS (and not just the concrete things, but abstracts as well). If I wouldn't accept a single thing, I wouldn't be playing it. That doesn't mean I like everything, but I have to accept the global set of "LFS-laws" so that I can find my own subset from it. When further patches come, I'll just adjust my subset according to the changed global set. Adopt, adapt and improve. I'm not a god of this game. I accept that fully. I'm just a pawn that has come to play at the pantheons playgrounds. I don't have shackles, but it's their ground, their laws, their rules.

As a codeslave I hate when someone who doesn't understand the environment I'm coding (or don't understand the actual coding itself) comes with only demands and who won't help the coding in any other way. I also hate when in mid-project someone is "forced" into codeteam without consulting us, the original coders. I admire the trio behind LFS for doing what they want. Wish I could too. At least I can give my supports to them.

Wish I made some sense. I tend easily tend to slip, drift and rant unclearly

if 'acceptance of the game laws' was all that was needed for a good game, you wouldn't see all of these games having patches produced at sizeable cost to the companies developing them lfs is enjoyable for many because of the relation it bears to 'real life' racing.

Quote from L(Oo)ney :

Ive just noticed something...sil3ntwar... are all from australia....hmm?

australia? i doubt it

:sheep:

Quote from Blowtus :

if 'acceptance of the game laws' was all that was needed for a good game, you wouldn't see all of these games having patches produced at sizeable cost to the companies developing them lfs is enjoyable for many because of the relation it bears to 'real life' racing.

Well yes of course. What I meant was that the relation to 'real life' racing is one of the reasons why someone would accept the gamelaws in the first place Another reason could be the knowledge that further patches are coming and the game improves in it's relation to 'rl racing'. No-one is forced (at least I hope so) to accept the current set of laws the game has to offer. I mean that players can only accept or not accept the laws, as well as suggest improvements instead of demanding them. Of course the discussion should be open to all points of view, but it should be noted that the community can't control the coders unless they want them to. And in that case I'm pretty sure they tell so themselves

Quote from Scawen :

Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

Also, gamers need to understand that a game is played for this weird thing called fun - when it's not fun any longer and especially when it's the exact opposite, then it's time for a break...

You are not understand me...illepall

The problem is not LFS, but the concurrency...

Scawen, you don't know me as much I know you. You have no idea how I love your work, how I propagate your work, how I defend your work.

I'm not impatient. I'm just saying to you: the market is waking up.

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

Quote from rAcEr2418 :

So for me, I would love updates and news more often, but right now, I can wait - and am having the time of my life!!

Good on ya m8 and welcome to LFS I'm sure you'll still love it in another six months... the only time I feel down about LFS is when I read some of the sugestions (read complaining) that are made all other times it's just great fun and everytime I get a good close scrap I forget about all else there is nothing like racing other humans after you've experienced that who would ever want to race computer opponents again

Quote from Vendetta :

Well, BBO you better hope scawen is still making LFS when hes 54

Well m8 I'll be 58 then and don't think my interest in all things motor sport will have wained much (my old mans still a petrol head at 68 ) so if Scawen and Co are still keen I'll be infact I should be retired by then and have more time now what could I do with more time

Quote from Speed Soro :

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

Well I'd say quite a few of us have had or have our own businesses here, and there is many ways to approach a business depending what your goals are... which I thought Scawen explained very well, so you have your view he has his, and I guess history will show if Scawens goals are achieved.

Manytimes it is as businesses tries to expand that the original vision and zeal are lost, when you hire many people that don't necessarily share the same vision as the original founders...(not to mention the extra overheads and pressures of expansion) you are right in saying to aggressively attack the market place requires a different approach, but Scawen has already stated that is not one of his goals, his goals are to produce a quality racing game/sim and enjoy the process at the same time... and I for one think it is a good goal... will that ever make LFS the top selling Sim? I serriously dought it... but that want stop me from supporting and enjoying this great game/sim for as long as they care to continue with its development...

P.s. you are allowed to have and play other sims/games also so why must you insist this be the ultimate racing sim? enjoy it and any others that might come along also...

I suppose as everyone else has hed their say I better had too.

I bought LFS S2 under the impression that it was a a good value, good standard Indie release. I actually thought it was a finished product, it's onloy recently that I have begun to realise that this product isn't anywhere near being finished. That makes me very happy because now I know why the Fo8 on the oval run nose high, and it makes me even happier knowing that that is going to be fixed. But to be honest I am also happy playing within the GameWorld Laws (As someone mentioned up above). Scawen mentioned impatience in his sermon, prompting people to excercise I little more of the afore mentioned virue. I for one agree. HF2 was started pretty much as soon as Half Life 1 had shipped, and look how long it took that game to reach us, and it still needed patching. And Valve seem to be on of teh more involving devs with its customers.

Most games you get from the big power houses (With the exception of the obvious, HF, the Quake engine, Unreal) just use old engines with a new graphics package chucked on top. Very rarely will they completly build an entirly new physics, graphical and sound package from teh ground up. Which (If my facts are correct) these LFS guys are trying to do. It takes time to do these things and I actually think they are doing alright. It's only because they do keep us so well informed and updated, and the fact that Minsiter Scawen comes and graces us with his sermons, that we get impatient. We want what Scawen has told us, and we want it now. that is only natural. But as Scawen sais, it takes time. I'm sure the Devs have so many good ideas they want to implement, so many new ways of doing things, so many dreams to fill and aspirations to . . . .aspire too, they are having difficutly just giving us the essentials without giving us the associatedf detritus. I would rather they gave us little bits, but perfect bits, than give us a huge but flawed release.

Devs. I paid my money. I like what I see. Good work. Give me some more soon. Please. Pretty please. Ta. Thanks. Then I can do what I like doing most of all. Playing a good game.

Quote from Speed Soro :

You are not understand me...illepall

The problem is not LFS, but the concurrency...

Scawen, you don't know me as much I know you. You have no idea how I love your work, how I propagate your work, how I defend your work.

I'm not impatient. I'm just saying to you: the market is waking up.

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

*Sigh*

This thread is just spam.

:bananadea :dnfnoob:

The way I see it ....

If LFS was developed using a normal business model we would not have heard anything about LFS until about 6 months or so before its final release (in this case 2008-2009) .The game would have been released and people who liked it would have bought it . Using the current model we pay to be part of a process and play a game while its still being developed , we have this cool opportunity to shape LFS into what the Sim community need and wants . Lets compare LFS to other sims when S3 Final is released in the coming years

Quote from Mogar :

I think that most of those complains are because several language related patches were released, when most of the problem with lfs weren't language support, but some few physics bugs that sometimes are annoying. Language support is more a cherry on the top of the cake than a real need.

If you live in a country where they teached you russian or other languages than english it IS a real need.

I think and hope NKPro will be good but it´s even more a 'niche' sim. At least at the time of the release the content is very much limited.

We have to accept that the perfect sim needs time. If NKPro hires a bigger staff and progresses faster with the same amount of quality well than they will win the race. Easy as that. I said IF...

If i feel bored with computers and the current state of technology i quit spending money and do something else in the best and most realistic freeware engine we do have.

Quote from noemfie :

The way I see it ....

If LFS was developed using a normal business model we would not have heard anything about LFS until about 6 months or so before its final release (in this case 2008-2009) .The game would have been released and people who liked it would have bought it . Using the current model we pay to be part of a process and play a game while its still being developed , we have this cool opportunity to shape LFS into what the Sim community need and wants . Lets compare LFS to other sims when S3 Final is released in the coming years

nah thats where your wrong m8 if it followed a traditional business model it would be more like the TOCA Race Driver serries which are upto about the 3rd release i believe at A$89.90 a pop for each "new" game when it's first released and support thats non existent for the same old same old illepall

Quote from Speed Soro :

You are not understand me...illepall

The problem is not LFS, but the concurrency...

Scawen, you don't know me as much I know you. You have no idea how I love your work, how I propagate your work, how I defend your work.

I'm not impatient. I'm just saying to you: the market is waking up.

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

No, you dont understand what scawen says: He doesnt care a shit for the market. Doesnt matter if there is nkpro out, if any other game might be better, he'll continue on his LFS-way. He has no need to listen to the customers, that they put pressure on him, to release anything faster. Better you try to understand the LFS-way b4 saying to anyone, that he doesnt understand you. I bet he understood you actually quite well, and he actually explain very well, WHY HE IS NOT listening to your suggestions. Let the market awake (ROFLMAO), it wont change anything on the way LFS is developed.

he understood "you" even before you posted. last time he understood this kind of dumb bossing around he quit one of the games industry top team.
what are u trying to do now?
pedantic arrogant demands? what is he? your cheap 24quid slave?
lfs reference is reality, nothing else. and soon you gonna see this phrase copied by other sims also. maybe professional reality then.
honest, read some of this game history or just plainly, **** off clueless.

Quote from Vykos69 :

No, you dont understand what scawen says: He doesnt care a shit for the market. Doesnt matter if there is nkpro out, if any other game might be better, he'll continue on his LFS-way. He has no need to listen to the customers, that they put pressure on him, to release anything faster. Better you try to understand the LFS-way b4 saying to anyone, that he doesnt understand you. I bet he understood you actually quite well, and he actually explain very well, WHY HE IS NOT listening to your suggestions. Let the market awake (ROFLMAO), it wont change anything on the way LFS is developed.

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

That sentence alone can make me feel I'm being ripped off for buying an unfinished product while I didn't necessarily knew it was an unfinished product. I'm only making assumptions here, because in my case I knew how LFS was ade and I support it.

I just don't believe it's right when the "community" closes the eyes to everything else, and create something like this stupid worship about a PRODUCT.

Yes, it is a good GAME, but it has a lot of flaws. And hey, if I don't like the game or see games being released that are better (within MY perception), I won't exitate in playing them. And THAT is exactly the problem my friends. The point where the huge companies understand how to make a sim and release products we can only wish Scawen made in 1 year time.

But hey, keep playing. I know I'll receive a physics update. I just don't know when. And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

Quote :

lfs reference is reality, nothing else. and soon you gonna see this phrase copied by other sims also. maybe professional reality then.

Kid, is this is true, so LFS fails MISERABLY to deliver what it aims for.

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

If you bother to read the blurb at the point of sale before you purchased you could not be mistaken what you are buying it's stated very clearly illepall do you sign contracts of purchase regularly without reading the disclosures? certainly doesn't sound like a good business man talking

Quote from Falkowski83 :

...I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

Uhh, no!

You paid for your S2 license, and you have it. That doesn't entitle you to demand updates. It gives you the right to unlock any versions of S2 as and when they come out. Where in the agreement does it say that you have the right to demand updates?

Let's be clear, you can demand what you like, but all you will do is annoy the developers. We do listen to the community, really a lot. But rushing us and telling us that our way of working is wrong and that we should turn onto a company and employ more people, doesn't help in any way. Because it's the way of working that we have chosen, and we aren't following standard routes, even if they could deliver faster update rates. Like i said before, as we've always said, we're doing this because we like this way of working. That is the reason LFS exists.

We've always delivered what we say we'll deliver and we've always said it takes time. And Vykos is right, that we don't really mind if a good sim comes out that entertains the sim community for a while. We just carry on working on our sim as well.

You have the RIGHT to **** off and stop playing LFS if you don't like it.

Quote from End-user license agreement :

1.4You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

You also have the right to bitch and whine all day about how LFS could be better but you will achieve nothing. You have not got the right to DEMAND anything. If you don't like it, tough. Get over it. IMO this is better for LFS in the long term.

Quote from Scawen :

Well said

If you guys have made any error, I'd hate to say it but it is you are too familiar with the community an old saying goes "familiarity breads contempt" and it appears to be true today as much as in the past unfortunately...

I think as long as S2 has "Alpha" stamped on it, many people that have an S2 license will feel like they are "owed" the final thing.

Quote from Scawen :

Uhh, no!

You paid for your S2 license, and you have it. That doesn't entitle you to demand updates. It gives you the right to unlock any versions of S2 as and when they come out. Where in the agreement does it say that you have the right to demand updates?

Let's be clear, you can demand what you like, but all you will do is annoy the developers. We do listen to the community, really a lot. But rushing us and telling us that our way of working is wrong and that we should turn onto a company and employ more people, doesn't help in any way. Because it's the way of working that we have chosen, and we aren't following standard routes, even if they could deliver faster update rates. Like i said before, as we've always said, we're doing this because we like this way of working. That is the reason LFS exists.

We've always delivered what we say we'll deliver and we've always said it takes time. And Vykos is right, that we don't really mind if a good sim comes out that entertains the sim community for a while. We just carry on working on our sim as well.

If you look back at my posts, I never said you should change the way you work. Not a single time. Yes, I have the S2 license. As a costumer, I also have the right to say what I like and I don't like about this product. Maybe the developers will listen, maybe they won't (more likely. It only happens that the devs listen to us here in LFS and with Grey Dog Software - an american company that produces sports pbp titles).

And axus. I know you are a kid, and I know that. I know how the developers are commited to the community. But as I said in another forum, sometimes the level of "worship" we find here is kinda scary. And btw, if you are not aware of, the consumerist law gives me the right to demand things (i'm a lawyer, btw)

And Scawen, just keep working. You know you will have to filter what you read. Take the good and let the bad go unoticed. If you thing I'm a smartass, because I don't post here often, so be it. I really don't care. I just want you to do what your goal is (S3), because until now, no big time company was able to produce the netcode you have (and hey, now I'm being serious: if GTL had the same netcode as LFS, dude, I'd be almost giving up on LFS until major patches and corrections were released).

But well, it seem this is not the place to say some different things about the game or only bring some whishes from people that are in Brazil. The fanboys will never listen, because LFS is the truth, and everything else is nonsense.