What are we talking about here?

Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?

I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.

And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.

About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.

As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...

Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.

There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...

Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.

Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.

Quote from TagForce :

It is indeed a good price... But might I ask what is wrong with bumpdrafting the XRT or XFG on Blackwood? That's one of the tracks I ALWAYS bumpdraft on, because even with lag it's relatively safe to do on that long straight.
Especially in the slower cars the advantages are huge.

nothing, but its better (ie more realistic and will serve you well if they ever do anything that might make bump-drafting impractical and thus making it closer to real life) if you draft someone, but as you pass them, let them draft you and fly past, then you do the same, even newbies can do that, unlike certain people "cool" bumpdrafting ieas of giving you taps on the wheels!

Quote from TagForce :

which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with

by just logically thinking this over, if you pick a slower car for bumpdrafting, this car will be in front when you arrive at the twisty section and will then slow you down greatly while the faster car you want to catch up to will just drive away.
I also cannot imagine you can use this for overtaking because you first have to pass the car you are bumping and then go one on one with the faster car. That will never work (except oval maybe).

Also you are falsly asuming that others have to inform you that they don't want to get raped from behind. It's the other way round, if you wanna bump someone you are to make sure that the other driver is informed before you do that (just as you cannot just bump any girl in RL from behind without asking).

Really, by just thinking over it, I would deny the big benefit of bumpdrafting on any track but the oval. On the oval everyone is equally fast and expects bumpdrafting as it seems, that is ok then. Please show me a replay where you beat a better driver because of bumpdrafting on a regular track (no oval).

Quote :

And i must say if anyone wacked on their brakes on a oval when i was trying to bump draft them on my team's server they wouldn't stay on the server for much longer than 5 secs, time it takes me to kick and ban.

imo, this bumpdrafting causes more crashes than it produces fast laps. something i dont understand though is why someone would get banned from a server for "brake checking" some one who trys to bump draft them, but when that bumpdrafter takes them both out or just one of them, thats ok?illepall ive watched a couple replays with this bumpdrafting and even joined a oval server a couple of times to see how it works, i saw one sub 34 lap but i also saw at least 5 or 6 wrecks caused by the person behind trying to bump the one in front!

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

I don't mind bumpdrafting at all, if it's done safely, i.e. on straights only and if no pass is attempted, the bumping car backs off early enough. I do it often on BL1 w/ XFG when catching up with the leaders or trying to outrun someone i know is faster. I do it safely, and can't remember a time it's ever resulted in a lag crash. In fact, I see it as not wanting to catch up with leaders if it's not done when possible (wtf, you want to lose eh?).

@the ppl who brake in front of bumpdrafters:
That's wrecking/blocking (depending on the outcome), deliberately slowing the other car down or taking it out. Bumpdrafting is not wrecking and when practised correctly is beneficial to both racers involved. What justifies you to wreck instead of informing you don't approve of this? I bet most BDs including me will back off and won't try it again with you.

The same as a flame: You brakers are a sad lot of losers, rubbing in racing is everyday stuff when done with cars that can handle it. Take your head out of your ass and see it does wonders for both of you.

It's incredible to read that you think we're losers. Don't you think the onus is on you to ASK whether this is acceptable?

As for the inflammatory remark in your last paragraph - T...W...A...T!!!

Quote from TagForce :

What are we talking about here?

Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?

I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.

And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.

About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.

As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...

Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.

There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...

Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.

Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.

im ok with bump-drafting on the long staights (and i mean straights, not mildly curved ones!) and the oval (when will people learn about the effects on down force when in draft and there fore you should never draft on a corner!), again, only on the straight, plus you must give warning and ask first, you never know, my car may be in a bad way with the suspension and tires , secondly, if i am given warning, i can line myself up, and therefore will not go crash if you touch me, personally, i think that you can get much better advantages from drafting past each other, much more fun, like i said before, drafting happens, and in LFS race to be the ultimate simulator, drafting will still work. for example, even a newbie can draft/can be drafted, where as if a newbie tries bumpdrafting on the start/finish straight, on the corner, they touch your wheel and your out! where as, you can pull out of the draft and uses the other foot for a change!

Other thing ive noticed, the fastest ive gone on my own is 186 mph, which i can get easy, but can go no faster, with a bump (and this one was expected!) i can get to 192 mph, which was fast, but when your coming up to a corner at that speed with someone doing the same speed on your tail, yuo wonder what to do! With drafting i can get to 201 mph (has anyone noticed that 199 mph is quite easy to get to if the car is stating on the racing line, but it doesnt seem to get any faster without taking a large amount of risks!) if i ever need to slow down i can pull out of the draft and let aerodynamics do the rest! i also prefer drafting because of how less dangerous it is!

I think the problem with bump drafting, and using it or not could be solved by server admins posting in the title whether that's allowed or not on the server.
Another thing to do with that server that allowed bumping was to keep statistics on it like average laptimes, but also how many times a Ban vote
was initialised, How many pit outs, and how many restarts as opposed to a server that didn't allow bumpdrafting.

As for beginners and bumpdrafting..... I think it's a more complicated tactic
than it looks and shouldn't be attempted right off the bat, if at all.

i would like to point out i am only against people that ram into others as a speed bost, not the type where they slowly join together until they are touching, then the rear driver floors it, but even then, it should only be attempted with mutual consent. out of interest, what is the longest straight in lfs?

Quote from Ardent :

by just logically thinking this over, if you pick a slower car for bumpdrafting, this car will be in front when you arrive at the twisty section and will then slow you down greatly while the faster car you want to catch up to will just drive away.
I also cannot imagine you can use this for overtaking because you first have to pass the car you are bumping and then go one on one with the faster car. That will never work (except oval maybe).

Also you are falsly asuming that others have to inform you that they don't want to get raped from behind. It's the other way round, if you wanna bump someone you are to make sure that the other driver is informed before you do that (just as you cannot just bump any girl in RL from behind without asking).

Really, by just thinking over it, I would deny the big benefit of bumpdrafting on any track but the oval. On the oval everyone is equally fast and expects bumpdrafting as it seems, that is ok then. Please show me a replay where you beat a better driver because of bumpdrafting on a regular track (no oval).

I think you're missing the point of bumpdrafting here...
When 2 racers decide to bumpdraft, they actually agree not to overtake eachother and fight for position. Fighting for position slows you down, and when the 2nd and 3rd place drivers want to catch up to the leader, they need to have some form of cooperation going on. In general, the driver that is the fastest through the turns will get 'the point' in a bumpdraft deal. This driver will be 2nd, and will lead the slower driver through the turns, guiding him over the best line (it's easier to navigate when you have a close focal point in front of you), and the following car will in turn push the lead car to higher speeds on the straights... Until there's a pack of 3, there is absolutely no overtaking happening. Once the leader's been caught, all hell breaks loose and the overtaking commences.

As for the "who's to inform who" question... In real racing, it is the lead car that has the capabilities of signing to the following cars, since they can clearly see him in his car. So that's where the responsibility of you telling me not to bump you comes from. Just because I am able to tell you what I'm going to do from behind, doesn't mean that SHOULD be what happens, nor does it mean it happens like that in real life... I could agree with you on changing the signing responsibility to the following car, though. Just that I've always learned that the front runner is the only one that can sign to the back, unless both drivers know there's going to be comms.

As for the replay... We'll meet on the tracks one of these days, and I'll show you (not on you, but on some willing racer) what the difference in laptimes can be. If you want a quick look, there's a link to a video posted in this thread that shows just how much of an advantage bumpdrafting can have over normal drafting, and also how the driver of the car in the video tells the following car he doesn't want to be bumped. (to save you about 25 mins of LX racing: The cam-car drafts 2 other cars and gains quickly, then gets out of the draft to pass, and halfway passed the first car he's slowed down by having the wind in his face, and ends up where he started.)

Quote from Jakq :

im ok with bump-drafting on the long staights (and i mean straights, not mildly curved ones!) and the oval (when will people learn about the effects on down force when in draft and there fore you should never draft on a corner!), again, only on the straight, plus you must give warning and ask first, you never know, my car may be in a bad way with the suspension and tires , secondly, if i am given warning, i can line myself up, and therefore will not go crash if you touch me, personally, i think that you can get much better advantages from drafting past each other, much more fun, like i said before, drafting happens, and in LFS race to be the ultimate simulator, drafting will still work. for example, even a newbie can draft/can be drafted, where as if a newbie tries bumpdrafting on the start/finish straight, on the corner, they touch your wheel and your out! where as, you can pull out of the draft and uses the other foot for a change!

It all depends on what you want to accomplish with the draft... If I want to pass someone I'm not going to bump him, simply because every mph he gains makes it harder for me to pass... However, bumping someone might negate the effect of the 3rd car that tries to pass me by drafting me in the normal way, because he will be in full air, and we are 2 cars as one, gaining speed. It also might help you to make up that 3 seconds the leader has on you 2, which simply wouldn't work in the normal way.


I'll try to find a good racer that will allow me to demonstrate bumpdrafting on Blackwood.

EDIT:
I agree there are too many noobs bumpdrafting on Blackwood that scare even me... Word of advice to people who've just started racing in LFS... Don't bumpdraft until you are able to match the speed of the car in front of you every time, without touching him or feathering the throttle... Then, and ONLY then, you may think about bumpdrafting him. And only on the long straights, and only until 200 meters before the next braking point. Trust me, the first couple of months you race, you should never, under any circumstance, bump another car for speed.

Thank you, TagForce. You have explained bumpdrafting well. If anyone is interested in laptime comparisons..

BL1, XFG, NOS Demo Server Chart
HL WR -> 1:31.540
Top BD Time -> 1.31.180 (I think it was that anyway. [Fluid] KingNothing & Takahashi dominate :P)

Even a mid 32s driver can hit very low 32s or even 31s when bumpdrafting, it's handy when there is only a few laps to go and the leader is a couple of seconds away. As TagForce explained there is no point in bumpdrafting if you are going to attempt a pass at the end of the straight. Only use it to catch up with leaders.

Knowing when to back off from BDing is also crucial and where crashes occur. If you are bumpdrafting a slower driver, he will brake before you do so leave enough distance before the corner. 200m is fine if you know who you are dealing with but if you don't, avoid bumping from the moment you are approaching the distance signs.

I'll finish off with a general racing tip:
If you are right in someone's rear bumper at the very beginning of a long straight, don't pass them as soon as you can because the likelihood of them drafting and re-passing you is quite high. Instead, without contact, remain in the draft until you approach the corner and make your pass so that you are well ahead of your opponent and s/he cannot attempt a re-pass in that corner.

Another advantage of not passing a driver of similar skill level immediately might be that if you can drive close enough to his/her rear bumper for several laps, perhaps making a fake passing attempt or two on the way, it may unsettle your opponent and result in him/her making a slight mistake that instead of just allowing you to pass safely, allows you to pull away without getting drafted. Unlike bumpdrafting, there is no contact, is a perfectly legal strategy and can be seen in the F1 circuit frequently.

Quote from TagForce :

I agree there are too many noobs bumpdrafting on Blackwood that scare even me...

Indeed, it's the only demo track after all, and almost every newbie has started there Can be a right mess at times.

Quote from TagForce :

What are we talking about here?
Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?

Thx mate, you rock! That´s what we talking about. I use bd very often, front or rear, I dont care. I´d never seen the car in front crashed while gettin´bumpdrafted. It´s the risk of the car behind ONLY. And saving the car after a small "bump-fail" gives you even better controls of your car. It´s very good practice. If ya don´t like it: Stay away from the oval.

We CAN do it in LFS, so we DO IT.

Crazy Harry (Ovalidiot)
HL 36:26
PB 35:07
BD 34:66

P.S.: I´m only talking about the oval. AND: Isn´t warming up your tires another kind of "cheating" to get better hl´s?

Bump Drafting is one of the most useful techniques, plain and simple. Me and my cousin used it all the time in karting. We'd pull away from the pack, and then battle it out or we'd team up and work our way through all of the traffic. This technique has transferred over to LFS without a problem. We both understand when to brake, and when not to bump. Hell, we even bump draft in corners. Do I do it to people I don't know? Yes. Is it controlled? Yes. Has there ever been an accident because of it? Yes, mostly when people slam on their brakes. Maybe if people started to realize that when they are race there’s going to be contact. I'd rather it be controlled then "non-intentional". Thats my 2 cents, and my first post.

Quote from tweaK_05 :

Hell, we even bump draft in corners. Do I do it to people I don't know? Yes. Is it controlled? Yes. Has there ever been an accident because of it? Yes, mostly when people slam on their brakes. Maybe if people started to realize that when they are race there’s going to be contact. I'd rather it be controlled then "non-intentional".

You got it. And it´s funny, sometimes guys come to the oval, hating bd. After they get there first better pb by bd it´s "wow, that´s amazing!" and "please do it again, please!"...

But before anyone try: Bd isn´t good for egoistic racers. The car in front of you mostly gets a better time then you....

You guys wonna know, whats really boring? Using the break and the horn on the oval.

Look and ask yourself: N00bish crashing or high skill driving? Bd in corners is a must to get a good pb.
http://rapidshare.de/files/10141667/Squeakys34_71.WMV.html

I think that clip shows just how unrealistic bd is in formula cars ROFL

bd through corners is just plain idiotic in LFS ,although I dont spend much time at the basic oval maybe its less noticable how silly it is there .There should not really be any contact when racing and certanly not on purpose bd has made good racecraft a little rarer , letting beginners think its ok to play this way will only drive standards down and cause accidents imo .

SD.

ok i normaly keep quite but bumpdrafting is just silly but it happens most of the "bumpdrafting" in rw happens on ovals in cars like nascar's mainly saloon racing car's not F1 or indy and they don't bump not if they can help it its just good use of the draft
Using the draft from the car in front is a good technique for overtaking at the end of a straight (before the corner) or on a oval you will traveling much faster then the guy in front and if you time it right you will get round quicker than bumpdrafting anyday. If someone bumpdrafts me all i do is change postion on the track before the corner and let them past if there paying attention that is other wise they miss there braking point and fly off. Any contact in a racing car is not good it screws up the dynamics of your car and damages there's which is not a good idea and there is always a risk of sending both cars off.

Quote from Valkyrie :

ok i normaly keep quite but bumpdrafting is just silly but it happens most of the "bumpdrafting" in rw happens on ovals in cars like nascar's mainly saloon racing car's not F1 or indy and they don't bump not if they can help it its just good use of the draft
Using the draft from the car in front is a good technique for overtaking at the end of a straight (before the corner) or on a oval you will traveling much faster then the guy in front and if you time it right you will get round quicker than bumpdrafting anyday. If someone bumpdrafts me all i do is change postion on the track before the corner and let them past if there paying attention that is other wise they miss there braking point and fly off. Any contact in a racing car is not good it screws up the dynamics of your car and damages there's which is not a good idea and there is always a risk of sending both cars off.

And again you fail to see the point of BD...
I can tell you that the normal drafting method does in fact NOT get you around the track faster. Since after one straight (we're talking oval here) you lose the draft completely and don't get it back until the straight after you've been drafted. The trick is to end up really close to the car in front, and gently nudging into his rear so as not to upset his car, and then just push him forward gently. When I bump you I don't want to pass you, I want you to hold your perfect line through all the corners... I can see where you're at, so I can get out of your draft and take the corner on a higher line... Then on corner exit I can get onto your gearbox again and bump you along the next straight, etc... This method is faster than passing all the time (although on the oval that is still faster than a single car can go).

well then i kinda fail to see the point of bd the whole point of racing is to be first not bump up your pb lap times its wins that count not pbs

I can't see where it is fair against the leader or the fourth when the second and third bumpdraft each other towards the leader. So it should be forbidden, and it is in many real racing leagues (that runs under: contact between two vehicles on purpose).
Do it on your privat servers, but don't dare to use it with or against someone who didn't agree with it.
In my opinion bumpdrafting is cheating. In real life and LFS.

Vain

Crazy Harry, this video of yours really looks like n00bish ramming... When I think of bumpdrafting, I think of contact of the bumpers ALL the time, not just ramming someone forward and coming back over and over again... illepall

Quote from bbman :

Crazy Harry, this video of yours really looks like n00bish ramming... When I think of bumpdrafting, I think of contact of the bumpers ALL the time, not just ramming someone forward and coming back over and over again... illepall

Oh, I forgot to install /insim towing eye... illepall


@Valkyrie: Your wrong."Normal" draft (2-man) can´t be faster than 34:9x.

Valkyrie: Read my explanation of BD a bit higher up in the thread... BD is ALL about winning... The fact that it's also the best way to get a low pb has nothing to do with the practice of BD... At least not with people who know what they're doing. The only reason the pb times are mentioned is to show you how much of an advantage it can have...

Vain: Unfortunately for you, in most national touring car series it is NOT forbidden. However, the person doing the bumpdrafting will be held responsible (and possibly be penalized) for any crashes that are a result of it. Online as well as in real life it is a risk you take, but when executed properly the benefits for both drivers involved may well outweigh the risks.
How is it not fair to the other drivers? Isn't racing about finishing first? If bumpdrafting helps drivers gain on the leader, then it's not their fault that they (unlike the other drivers who don't BD) go faster. If you don't like the practice of BD, fine, don't do it. But either start doing it yourself, or quit bitchin' about it being cheating while it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES. Seriously, don't do it if you don't want to, but accept the fact that 2 guys who are BD and beat you didn't do so by cheating, but by working together.

Quote :

it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES.

Wrecking is also a strategy to WIN RACES. Yet, just because you win because you shove everyone off the track, wrecking isn't a good thing. The same goes for bumpdrafting.

Vain

bumpdrafting is banned in most LFS leagues. I wonder why ?

SD.

only one thing. crashing is not a strategy for winning races! it`s a strategy for getting banned or kicked on servers! i think everyone should do what he want`s. if he want to bumpdraft good! if not, good for me, too! but you can`t look on wracking and bumpdrafting as the same! with bumpdrafting you`re not kicking people out! and if the 3 driver stays in the draft of the two bumpdrafter he gets better times then the two in front!

happy new year!

Ecret

Quote from Vain :

Wrecking is also a strategy to WIN RACES. Yet, just because you win because you shove everyone off the track, wrecking isn't a good thing. The same goes for bumpdrafting.

Vain

Wrecking is a strategy to finish alone... Not in first. There is a difference between punting cars into the wall, and pushing a car to gain speed. In the first, the other car doesn't finish, in the latter everyone finishes, but not necessarily in the order of speeds on hotlaps.

For now, let's just agree to disagree, because we're not ever going to agree on this subject on this forum.