The only analogy I can liken it too is the dolby switch on an old tape deck.

Race is with the switch off, rough, raw, "scratchy", LFS has the dolby setting on, artificially smoothened.

Quote :

It's not the sounds, it's just the way the car moves, the roughness and rawness of it all, it's very hard to describe, but there is certainly something missing.

You're just right in there! (first post since 2 years!) I was thinking about that while watching touring on youtube... look at the entries, the brake points... you actually see the car nosing to the front. When truning you see the carr fighting with it.

ok, now what's lacking lfs... it needs a bit of physics update for the "more realistic" movement of the car, recorded sounds for the things that are NOT dynamic (c'mon, you can't belive LFS will SIMULATE the sound for the suspension/road/chasis) the realtime produced sounds for the engine is perfectly well indeed. and ofcourse work out the "lag bugs" so we can get some contact between each other (without becoming a flying ricochet with four wheels XD)

PD: 2 years and 10 and a half months xD

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I haven't played RACE 07, but in last year's RACE I found a lot of those effects quite distracting. In particular I remember there being a very exaggerated bouncing effect in some places (going through Curva Grande at Monza for example) that just seems weird - more like a constant oscillation than driving on a bumpy surface.

I agree that LFS feels too clean though. The cars don't "feel" mechanical enough somehow.

This is my feeling as well. I hate the artifical griminess of the ISI sims (pebbles hitting the wheelwells all the time is pretty ridiculous), but LFS is a bit too placid at times.

I'm sure Scawen has some brilliant solution in mind, though.

I don't drive w/ FF, but I can understand that sense of smoothness as well. Especially after coming off GTR2, everything in LFS is smoother- not really for better or worse, just different I suppose. LFS can get pretty hairy and bumpy though- anyone remember the MRT?

I'd love to see a bit more variation in the track surfaces in LFS. In fact I hope that becomes a top priority sooner rather than later. Out of all improvements I can think of, more detailed track surfaces would probably top my list. Detailed, as in 'next generation' - an innovative approach. Couple that with some better sounds, and... :yummy:

OK, I retract my statement about the carousel.

That was a bad example. There are parts on a lot of rFcator tracks however where the car will throw itself off the track because of some of the bumps, even when you're going in a straight line.

Quote from danowat :

It's not the sounds, it's just the way the car moves, the roughness and rawness of it all, it's very hard to describe, but there is certainly something missing.

i assume you're missing the "contact" to other cars the little bumps and close racing in generall, the small pieces of gravel in the wheel housing, the dirt on your windshield the blue smoke from all these engines revving... etc.
i'm missing that certain something too, but hey we'll get it.
It's just a matter of time.

regards

Quote from Blackout :

Well...being a idiot I bought Race 07 and the whole game just feels awful, plain awful. I don't actually know what is it, but I guess it's the fact that FFB doesn't tell what the front wheels are doing, and it shakes a lot.

I haven't played Race07, but THE thing I like the most about LFS is the excellent return-to-centre thing which lets your steering wheel tell you where the front wheels are pointing at any given time, especially when you drift. Feels very good.

I really hate the vibrations most rF tracks produce, which are just consistent bumps everywhere on the track AFAIK. I would, however, love some proper bumps to be modelled, as in modelling individual bumps that actually make a difference to the experience of the track rather than just shaking everything. LFS already has some at Fern Bay and South City but the other tracks could do with some more really.

I know what you mean Dan, LFS is a 'soft' game. As shit as other games are, the raw 'ear splitting, head acheing rawness' isn't here. I can understand the road cars feeling reletively soft, but the GTR's and Formula's aren't as hard as they should be... And please, don't try to correct me, I am NOT talking about handling. Purely Atmospheric

Have to agree about the S2 tracks being too smooth and artificial. Yes, they're wider for a reason (to accomodate larger, faster cars) but that doesn't mean they have to have the surface of a billiard table. Westhill, for example, you'd expect to be quite bumpy since it appears as a generally low budget, undeveloped track (unlike Aston, with grandstands and kerbs and configs galore).

Speaking of Aston, it'd be nice to feel the difference in the surface when using (for example) the modern GP config, compared to bits of the old Historic config that aren't part of GP and would be an older, more pitted, weathered, frost-bitten surface.

I enjoy the in-depth analysis' of the Track's and cars, especially what Strobe said about Westhill being a low budget track e.t.c. If you could pair Westhill with a real life track - try and pair with an english track first. What would you pair it with?

Thruxton

Quote from Tweaker :

Don't be fooled by the cockpit vibrations.... if that is what you are talking about here....

All recent ISI based games have those vibrations, even if the track isn't bumpy. Because externally, their cars look just as rigid as LFS cars when it comes to bumps & suspension play.

its an effect you can set in the player files ... one of the first things i switch off in any isi sim


i fully agree that lfs' tracks are too smooth but isi artificial virbations everywhere are not the way to go

btw dan if youd like to see more bumps dial the z gforce movement down to 0

I'll have a fiddle with the G force settings, see if I can improve on what I already have

Quote from nihil :

My only experience of driving LFS with force feedback was a little disappointing (FXO GTR on Fern Bay, and XRG on South City). I could feel the tyres resistance as they turned against the road, but there was very little sense that the road was anything more than a unitary, conceptual surface. Even on South City, there were a few, individual, moments that signposted themselves as 'a bump', but still the road surface seemed to have nothing in the way of a granular, moment-by-moment, identity.

The wheels at the race centre had some issues:
* They were momos
* They were seriously well used and worn (despite regular replacement)
* They weren't optimally setup for LFS (rather for GPL)

As soon as I got home I shaved 2 seconds off my laptimes, it was lovelly and frustrating all at the same time.

Quote from StewartFisher :

I think it's almost all to do with the sounds. Driving in rFactor you hear the creaks and squeaks of the chassis and suspension as you hit bumps, whereas in LFS you hear the engine and the tyres and...well...that's it!

And wind, don't forget wind!

I don't have experience with anything prior to LFS except with NR2003 (read as I went from NR2003 straight to LFS and stayed). Here's my 2 cents.....

Aston National for example use - after the 2nd split, as you pull out of the right hand hairpin, there is a huge bump there. You can feel it in the car, see it in the car, as well as it can (slightly) mess you up. It is especially noticeable in reverse configuration as that is part of a braking zone coming in.

South City Long - After the double apex and chicane, the left hander heading down the hill, at the bottom of the hill, and the left hander before entering up the overpass just before the 2nd split. You can really feel, see, and be messed up by the bumps there.

These are really the only 2 places that I can think of that has any sort of bump to them that affects you in any way. You guys state LFS as being smooth as silk, and for handling, yes it is. But visually, even at Westhill, I can see the tracks are very bumpy as the car shakes around quite a bit visually. The problem is, you can't feel them and they have no affect on your car.

LFS needs more areas/corners like the spots I mention there at Aston and South City. Fern Bay keeps coming up here, and I'm trying to think of anywhere on that track that is bumpy. I can think of no areas. The only time I can think of hitting bumps at Fern Bay is if you use the curbs. Same with Kyoto. And like I said, Westhill I can see bumpiness visually, but there is no feeling of bumpiness at all.

Added: Yes, artificial vibration is definitely not the way to do it (going along with what Shotglass stated). But the bumps that I mention at Aston and South City, you do feel in the steering wheel as the weight of the car will lift slightly, giving you a change in the feedback from the steering wheel. A steering wheel does not vibrate because of bumps. But the Aston and SO bumps are quite realistic to what you would feel in the wheel if you hit them in a real car.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a stupid, fat, lazy, can't drive, can't spell, war loving, humorless, can't understand sarcasm American Just had to put that in there, hehehe

There is (or at least it was more noticeable in 0.3) plenty of bumps in SO Long coming down to break for the really tight corner, and also one at the top of that hill. Totally agreed LFS tracks are still too smooth, though.

For the most part I agree, particularly that surfaces are too smooth, lacking both low and high frequency bumps. I also think engines still lack character, which contributes. Not just sound, but the way they idle, the way they rev up and down, the way they respond to throttle, not to mention the way they start . Too perfect, too smooth, almost too turbine-like maybe. Just my 2 cents.

100% Agree Dan. LFS is more an excercise in maths than visceral experience sometimes, but it sure does drive well.

But Shot, what in the world are you talking about? Last time you brought up the zero movement / G force, I thought you were berserk, but I went and tried it - and it just made it worse! Even the bump you mentioned in Blackwood (I think it was) is an order of magnitude more noticable with head movement enabled!

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

But Shot, what in the world are you talking about? Last time you brought up the zero movement / G force, I thought you were berserk, but I went and tried it - and it just made it worse! Even the bump you mentioned in Blackwood (I think it was) is an order of magnitude more noticable with head movement enabled!

i find that the damping on the gforce moevements tends to smooth those bumps a lot
maybe the cockpit isnt shaking anymore with all sliders down to 0 but thats not what youre looking at or at least it shouldnt be
at least with a stiff chassis like the fo8 or the bf1 i do see the bumps a whole lot better with no head movements

might be a monitor response time thing

My 2 cents worth.

LFS tracks are WAY too smooth with perfect tarmac and very few bumps or ripples.
SO is the best but still needs a lot of work IMO.

My real world experience ( Bikes, Sidecar swinging, Karting, and car track days) at 3 NZ circuits is that tracks change grip, tracks tend to ripple ( especially after trucks have been there ! ) and there can be huge differences in grip as only sections of track are resealed at a time.

Also for SO I think that there should be the standard road markings ( white lines, giveway etc ) and as these are always done with a plastic paint the change of grip for this as well as manholes will make the surface more realistic.

I'd love to see a lot more work on the tracks but this is not a complaint, LFS with FF on max still feels better than any other sim I've used but as with anything there's always room for improvement.

Quote from dude56 :

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think a lot of it has to do with sounds.

I've always liked racer for the way it sounds. in LFS the FZ50 doesn't sound like a flat 6. LFS sound have always sounded "cheap" no offence please! while in racer, a 911 sounds like a propor flat 6.
I don't drive racer very much becuase the game has millions of bugs etc, but the sounds have always bugged me in LFS.

Zachary, the Racer sounds would sound "right" because they are direct clips from the car, so while they are realistic, they give the feedback of sticking your wang in a toilet paper roll.


I don't accept responsibility for awkward situations arising from my post, such as conversations involving mothers, fathers, wangs, toilet paper rolls, condoms, or any other derived conversations from forewarned items.

yes, very true.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

..the Racer sounds would sound "right" because they are direct clips from the car, so while they are realistic, they give the feedback of sticking your wang in a toilet paper roll.

:ices_rofl