So is real life racing And the force could be varied anyway I'd suppose.

But the effect of G forces is from your inner ear; not pressure on your head!?

Ok, make a set of headphones with sticks that go in your ear and poke around. That might work.

Quote from Dissident :

Here's an idea: create the device as an open helmet which covers the user's head and shoulders.

Whenever you need to apply forces, motors inside the device apply the forces on the user's head using the shoulders as leverage point - you can then simulate front, back, left and right forces.

I was thinking of building such a device and using components of a strong FF joystick. All its electronics could be used and the steering software (or rather a driver or a bridge between a racing sim and a device) would be just a DirectInput application.

Apart from that, we can still hope that some mass market device using galvanic vestibular stimulation will be released one day. http://www.forbes.com/personal ... x_lh_0804remotehuman.html

Quote from Juls :

Most products designed for simracers focus on look and expensive material used, not price. Carbon fiber addons for G25 with LCD display, fiber glass cockpit shell, hand made wheels, real racing seats, gauges.

Actually, composites are not expensive to work with. You can make molds quite easily out of styrofoam. The "expensive" part is, as with everything else, the tools - the only consumable that may seem expensive is the epoxy (depending on the brand you use) but you don't use that much in comparison with the production.

To make robust composites you need a way to do some vacuum bagging, so a 300 euro initial setup will get you a decent pump and paraphernalia. So the overall initial cost would probably be less than the tools required to work with other materials (cromoly steel comes to mind if you want something that you can trust to be sort-of lightweight yet strong), i.e. cut-off discs, welding kits, etc. Also, if you make your molds right you can re-use over and over, just wax them properly before application.

It's also a bit cleaner method and doesn't require noisy powertools - you can work on composites in the middle of the night, getting high on epoxy and no one will ever notice. And the more careful you are during production the less time you'll spend finishing it off.

Quote from Dissident :

Here's an idea: create the device as an open helmet which covers the user's head and shoulders.

Whenever you need to apply forces, motors inside the device apply the forces on the user's head using the shoulders as leverage point - you can then simulate front, back, left and right forces.

Bonus if you include headphones inside the helmet for sound, and allow the user to turn his head to change POV.

No bonus if the device snaps the user's spinal chord when hitting the wall at 300 km/h

Probably can be made for under $500. And people can finally justify wearing a helmet while driving a sim

If I remember well, this idea was patented during the 70s or 80s, by the british army. In this patent, they used two pulleys, one on each shoulder, and a helmet with a rope attached on both sides going through the shoulder pulleys. Pulling the ropes pulls the head left and right.

There is somewhere in Japan a very similar device with a formula one cockpit.

Nice idea, but I think it is very dangerous.

Quote from Juls :

...Nice idea, but I think it is very dangerous.

Therefore it must be built.

check the RSC forum some1 made that already afaik

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I'm not interested in sitting on a plastic cushion that pokes me in the arse. Not for $500 anyway, when I can get the same thing for £20 down by the docks.

well thats my new sig sorted, when i read that last night i nearly clapsedwith laughing and was still titering this morning... priceless i tell ya...

Quote from w126 :

Apart from that, we can still hope that some mass market device using galvanic vestibular stimulation will be released one day. http://www.forbes.com/personal ... x_lh_0804remotehuman.html

This looks fantastic, I hope it gets produced. And "galvanic vestibular stimulation" just sounds too cool

Quote from w126 :

Apart from that, we can still hope that some mass market device using galvanic vestibular stimulation will be released one day. http://www.forbes.com/personal ... x_lh_0804remotehuman.html

major problem with this is that it only messes with your balance organs but you still dont actually feel the pull of gfroces on your entire body which is half the fun
such a device would probably be either vomit inducing or in the best case synthetic in feel

figers crossed that some time in the near future someone will discover what gravity actually is and how to switch it on and off in a lab

I had an idea for a kind of vest to simulate the forces.

It has inflating parts and motors and is designed to be slipped on over your clothing. The parts on the front inflate when you acclerate and the motors pull it tighter, so the effect you feel is being pushed backwards by pressure. The opposite effect with braing, where the back parts inflate. Obviously when the forces level out it deflates again and the motors release the pressure slightly.

It might not work, but it sounds cool

Such a vest already exists. TN Games is launching such a product in November this year.
http://www.tngames.com

8 tactile actuators are placed in the vest...4 front, 4 back. According to their API, these actuators can be either on or off, there is no progressive pressure.

I suppose they suggest forces using vibrations of these actuators with changing frequency.

Well that's fine for FPS (for binary on/off flashes when you're getting shot) but not much use in a driving sim. You'd need variable pressure to simulate accelerating forces. Hence my inflating/defalting pads.

I should patent that idea before Logitech come along and steal it

Quote from Dajmin :

I should patent that idea before Logitech come along and steal it

to late m8 i did last night

Quote from Shotglass :

figers crossed that some time in the near future someone will discover what gravity actually is and how to switch it on and off in a lab

Actually the scientists have already developed artificial gravity in test chambers. Since all objects have their own gravity field, they went in to find a great mass has its own gravity field that could make the test subject feel variations of gravity and G-forces.

Unfortunately the huge mass they used was Valve's Gabe Newell and thus slight setbacks were inevitable - first being there's only one Gabe Newell so price for unit was somewhat high and there was a risk of a heart attack if Gabe had to move around faster than one inch per hour without consuming uninterrupted flow of double cheese burgers.

Quote from spankmeyer :

Actually the scientists have already developed artificial gravity in test chambers. Since all objects have their own gravity field, they went in to find a great mass has its own gravity field that could make the test subject feel variations of gravity and G-forces.

Unfortunately the huge mass they used was Valve's Gabe Newell and thus slight setbacks were inevitable - first being there's only one Gabe Newell so price for unit was somewhat high and there was a risk of a heart attack if Gabe had to move around faster than one inch per hour without consuming uninterrupted flow of double cheese burgers.

maybe they could bring the machines price down by using the gravitational pull of tristans ego instead
he looks a good bit more sporty as well

Quote from Shotglass :

maybe they could bring the machines price down by using the gravitational pull of tristans ego instead
he looks a good bit more sporty as well

It's been tried, but it was found to be repellant.

They'd need something more dense. Best place to look would be the Improvement Suggestions forum.

Yeah, my ego is repellant. You can tell, as I sit here alone typing in a darkened room. If it was as you suggested, I'd be surrounded (closely) by large heavy objects, and small pointy things.

So, you'd be surrounded by Sam, and Jakgs penis?!

:hide:

Looks like this thread is a bit out of control, but a lot more funny.

Talking about patents, it seems that most ideas (tactile feedback, actuators, inflatable vests, headset with pulley or other things) have been patented before the early 90's and are now in public domain.

Have you seen how much costs a patent in Europe? When I think about the European Patent Office, I start smashing things.

^^! Vote=no from me...imo 85% of you are utter geeks with no shame LoL!.....pffff, motion simulation! what next ey? Rubber smell simulation, yeah I can see that one taking off too "New Rubber Smell, ou de toilette, for that race track sensation" rofl,


your all stir crazy....imo anyway's

If you can to do something like a FREX GP SimConMotion with less than 500$ and you can shell... Don't ask! DO IT! :headbang:

500$=345€... I want one now!!

Quote from CSU1 :

^^! Vote=no from me...imo 85% of you are utter geeks with no shame LoL!.

You are right to ask wether acceleration simulation is useful or not. I remember a few years ago, most of my friends told me exactly the same thing when I bought a wheel: this is a geek gadget.
After trying it they changed their mind. I suppose this is the same with acceleration simulation.

If we consider the problem from a simplified physical point of view.

The sum of all forces on an object give the instant acceleration.
The "sum" of instant acceleration over time gives the object instant speed.
Acceleration always precede movement.
The display and sounds of a racing game are always late compared to acceleration, because they are the result of acceleration on a heavy object, integrated over time.

In racing simulator without acceleration simulation, there is a delay between what we do and the perception of our environment. What we do now changes forces acting on the car elements, that is to say acceleration. What we see and hear are movements of the car, the result of past acceleration, the result of our past movements.

IRL, we have something more to help us: acceleration cues. We can feel acceleration and acceleration changes, which are the instant results of our actions on wheel and pedals. This gives us an instant feedback concerning our actions. We know from acceleration and our past experience whether we are acting in an appropriate way or not.

For example, we can immediately feel how strong we are pushing or turning and we can correct immediately, while without acceleration cues we have to wait until the effects of our bad behavior become noticeable to start correcting.

I think this is one of the main reasons why simulated driving seems far less intuitive than real driving for some people (this and field of view<>sense of speed).
Acceleration helps us in another way...it is absolute. I mean when you turn at a certain speed, you will feel the same acceleration in a mustang or in a mini, while the wheel force feedback may change a lot depending on your car and setup. At a given speed, you have to give the mini and the mustang the same lateral acceleration to follow the curve. And you can immediately feel if you manage to do it or not.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

But the effect of G forces is from your inner ear; not pressure on your head!?

and the whole rest of the body feels the acceleration too. I really can't imagine how to build a small device that lets you feel acceleration where there is none. the only exception would be wires connected to your nerves or somehting like that.

if you want acceleration, you have to create it.

with something like this

you wouldn't even get 1 full G in a certain direction. that might be ok for a nice lap with the XFG... but for the F1 forces, something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxQ5BwEaFlg

that'd give you more acceleration than you'd ever need. sadly, it doesn't fit into my living room.




edit: now I have my own idea...
you wear a metal-suit while playing.
in front, in the back, left and right of you are electric magnets.
if you accelerate, the one behind you starts to work. you brake, the one in front is activated... and so on.
ahhh... brilliant I am!!! :-)))