I don't think the XRR can be made attractive to the FXR driver if they drive that car in preference to the FZR at the moment.

But what would it take to make the current drivers of the FZR to seriously think that the choice between the XRR and FZR comes down to how the cars handle rather than lap times? At the moment I still feel people drive the FZR because it is clearly the fastest once you have broken the learning curve. As it stands none are tempted to use the XRR except as an experiment or for a brief change. Are the FZR drivers here really saying that they would consider they have no option but to jump ship to the XRR if 10kg was removed from it's ballast?

I am sure they is a real difference in driver's attitudes who drive the 3 cars (huge generalisation here ) FZR drivers drive it mainly because it is the best, XRR drivers like the challenge and FXR drivers like the forgiving nature of their car. I would just like to see the XRR have a bit more of a chance, maybe even the fastest in some situations, to make some of the FZR drivers jump ship so the racing is more varied.

Maxim

Quote from srdsprinter :

Take a look at the weight change with gas in/out.

It is so easy for you....

:ashamed:

Maxim

Quote from MaximUK :

It is so easy for you....

:ashamed:

Maxim

NP!

Agreed on your above point though.

Here's a thought:
If the physics changes are significant with 'Y' and everything will need to be rethought/relearned/resetup than the XRR could grow from the begining if it is on par speed wise.

Possibly but are we expecting any major physics changes with Y? I thought it was mainly about AI and interiors? I try not to worry about what is coming next and just enjoy it when it comes so it is possible I have missed the probable contents.

I am not too concerned with removing the lag as that is part of why I drive it. Each car has its unique quality and we should really drive them for that reason and not have to factor in the fact certain cars will never win if one of the quicker people turn up in the FZR. Only speed will tempt the FXR drivers away from that car as it is much friendlier to drive. At the moment they just go to the FZR and the XRR doesn't seem to figure. I also think we may be loosing sight of just how little weight 10kg is compared to the racing weight of the car. My best guess is only 0.2seconds and I can't really see it making the FZR obsolete. If Scawen removes it and suddenly no-one drives the FZR he can add some back. Ballast adjustments can go both ways after all.

Maxim

Quote from MaximUK :

Each car has its unique quality and we should really drive them for that reason and not have to factor in the fact certain cars will never win if one of the quicker people turn up in the FZR.

You're talking from a short races point of view. I'm sure, and I know, that many teams will use the XRR for endurance races because of less tyres wear and less fuel consumption.
In expert hands, the FZR and the XRR can compete in short races. Check the top times on our servers, there is not a huge difference, and we are talking about aliens times. But the FZR is already obsolete for long races.
And frankly I'm seeing more and more FXR's these days (because it's easy to drive and forgiving) than FZR's and XRR's.

Maxim I know you're a XRR fanatic, but even if the XRR was the faster GTR I wouldn't drive it.
Because it's ugly and because it's a turbo car.
The FZR is the most beautifull car in LFS to me, the only one of the big GTR's which does NOT have a turbo and at the end it's the most brilliant car in LFS.
Yes, it's a personal opinion :P

Quote from Lotesdelere :

But the FZR is already obsolete for long races.

Bold statement of fact.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

You're talking from a short races point of view. I'm sure, and I know, that many teams will use the XRR for endurance races because of less tyres wear and less fuel consumption.
In expert hands, the FZR and the XRR can compete in short races. Check the top times on our servers, there is not a huge difference, and we are talking about aliens times. But the FZR is already obsolete for long races.
And frankly I'm seeing more and more FXR's these days (because it's easy to drive and forgiving) than FZR's and XRR's.

Maxim I know you're a XRR fanatic, but even if the XRR was the faster GTR I wouldn't drive it.
Because it's ugly and because it's a turbo car.
The FZR is the most beautifull car in LFS to me, the only one of the big GTR's which does NOT have a turbo and at the end it's the most brilliant car in LFS.
Yes, it's a personal opinion :P

I think in expert hands the XRR can cling on just behind but it is still 0.5 seconds off the pace which won't disappear with just 10kg off. Like you say though one circuit short distances but that is all I have to compare with sadly.

No argument from me that the FZR is the best looking of the GTRs. Like you won't leave it regardless of the speed, neither have I abandoned the XRR even though it has all the short coming you mention. I originally thought the gap between the FZR and FXR was still too big. Looking at the useage levels though someone could probably make a case to widen it by removing 10kg from the FZR but I will leave that one for someone else. I have given all the stats I have so people can make their own assessments. I hope we don't have to wait for the endurance series to finish before making an adjustment but it will be interesting to see those results.

Maxim

MOE could aide in telling certain things about outright speed + advantage over various spans. They're months away from starting AFAIK though.

As its been said, FXR is friendly and faster than ever, and its popularity is showing. FZR still faster and sexy, but now has drawbacks overcoming its speed advantage. XRR is the odd middle duck, no real superlatives, some drawbacks, only a specialty piece.

I know this is a big bump to the thread, but didn't want to start a new one and didn't find a newer one about this topic either.

I've read most of the posts but I want to ask to expert people who have experienced it first hand.

People talk about "short" and "long" races. OK, what's a short and a long race? I mean, let's say 20 minutes in AS GT, would the XRR and FXR stand a chance against the FZR? Let's now say 1 hour... would there be any difference? Maybe the XRR and FXR wouldn't need a tire change in an hour, but I'm pretty sure the FZR would. What do you think?

I like the XRR the best out of the three, but when it comes to competitions... you know, I like to win

It's hard to get the stats you need on long races, since most public servers run events that are at most about 15 mins. You'd need to contact the people who run leagues and things to get longer event info.

I still think that using the total stats is a bit of a waste, since the lack of XRR drivers is obviously going to hurt the chances of a good time getting set.
But the fastest laps are looking quite even, so obviously the fast people can drive fast in any of them.

And as has been previously mentioned, until turbo lag is introduced, the any turbo car values are going to be off anyway.

Quote from Dajmin :

And as has been previously mentioned, until turbo lag is introduced, the any turbo car values are going to be off anyway.

Introduced! Fixed, you mean.

In the LOTA Grand Touring Cup we run GTRs in roughly 1hr races. In general, we find them to be pretty well-balanced. The majority of the field this season is driving FXRs, which is perhaps to be expected, but the few FZRs and XRRs are generally a little quicker than them (this is perhaps due to the skill of the drivers who chose the XRR/FZR, though that's always a tricky thing to quantify) and are dominating the points.

The XRR and FZR tend to be almost equal in terms of performance, with the FXR perhaps a tenth or two back (though Appie tends to make up that difference). On some tracks the FXR gains from its AWD and the gap is pretty much erased. Overall, I think a good enough driver could win in any of the three cars, and given the ups and downs that occur over an hourlong race (with two pit stops) there's enough karma to even things out considerably.



In the MoE this season we've had two races. In GT1, the XRR won the first (KY3, 12hr) and the FZR won the second (SO4, 6hr). There is only one FXR on the grid and so far it's not been terribly competitive, though, again, that might have more to do with the drivers' skill than the car itself.

I'm running in the GTC and because of the performance based ballast through trial and error I've worked out a semi-accurate formula for it. (.1 seconds/10 kg)/1 minute Works pretty well for the fzr for me, not so sure about how well it works with the xrr/fxr because I don't drive those cars in the league. (Although it has given me pretty accurate results trying to figure out relative car paces.)

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

but the few FZRs and XRRs are generally a little quicker than them (this is perhaps due to the skill of the drivers who chose the XRR/FZR, though that's always a tricky thing to quantify)

OOOO YEAH!!!!! we have a lot of skills hahahahaha that's true DWB

I think if you go back and watch all the ALMS races this year, you will see a perfect example of cars, the Audi R10 and the Porsche Spyder, that are very different yet run nearly the same lap times. One is an LMP1 and is larger, longer wheel base, with gobs more power... but it is heavier. The LMP2 Spyder is lighter, smaller and much more nimble.
On the tighter tracks, the Spyder was the clearly faster car. On long tracks, the R10 was clearly faster. But on the in-between tracks, it was a heck of a battle. If the R10 ever got in front, it was very tough for the Spyder to pass because the R10 would just gap them on the straights.
But if the Spyder could get by in the corners, and they had enough time before a straight, they would pull away.
On tighter tracks, the R10 would use traffic to their advantage because of their huge torque and make quick work of slower cars. The Spyder would lose momentum getting around traffic allowing the R10 to either catch up or build a gap.

It all made for some exciting racing.

The point is, even if all the GTR cars are made so that we can run identical lap times in hot laps, racing against each other will still be a challenge. For example, the XRR has a bit more top speed down the straights, but it is almost useless because the FXR will get a much, much better jump exiting the last corner. They can get so good of a jump, that the XRR can't catch up even along the longest straights. To get by, you have to race. Find the weakness in the other driver or other car, and fight your way past. That is as it should be.
So, don't worry too much about equal lap times. I think they should be as close as is feasibly possible. But, because of the different nature of each car model (thank you Scavier), there will still be advantages and disadvantages to each car. This is as it should be because they are different cars. It ain't spec racing here.