Quote from Not Sure :

i use three pedals (four if i count the e-brake). i also use dxtweak to adjust sensitivity. haven't tried the (mis)calibration thing, i'll give it a shot.

i wonder if this would have something to do with bad shifts:

in dxtweak the values for my clutch axis (actually the throttle axis of Microsoft SideWinder FF USB) jump up and down somewhat, and in general it looks a lot less smooth than dfp pedals. should it be this way? dirty pot or really low resolution?

DXTweak should do basically the same thing as the calibration lock. You must either have something configured incorrectly, or pots that are giving bad readings. But you should easily be able to look while playing and see how far you have to press before the white line on the clutch bar is visible, and whether or not the clutch is "jumpy".

Easy Mike, how your friend would drive real car on race circuit?

He would face same difficulties as now with LFS, so I would say it is more realistic = better, this way.

It is perhaps bit cruel, but reality often is

Quote from JTbo :

Easy Mike, how your friend would drive real car on race circuit?

He would face same difficulties as now with LFS, so I would say it is more realistic = better, this way.

It is perhaps bit cruel, but reality often is

sure he would have problems..but if they can make a touringcar driveble to Alex Zanardi....
Or.....just a little box that says "Handicap shifting" in settings and u would get that nice bumpersticker on your skin aswell.

anyhow...if they make clutch heating less sensitive it might sort his problem..
since it is driveble with that cofiguration i mentioned..a slight adjustment of heating would be all that needs.
then even handicaped without G25 wheels could continue racing LFS.

Most crips use automatic transmissions in road cars and a push pull system for throttle and brake.

But there is a setup for a manual box where a little lever is attached to the gear stick which works the clutch (it's called a duck clutch), and a ring is attached (usually) behind the wheel which when pulled toward the wheel presses the throttle pedal down. The brakes can be pressed by either a lever beside the wheel or another ring on top of the wheel which presses the brake pedal when pushed. There's a guy in some porsche championship has this kind of setup.

I'm not certain what Zanardi uses, but i think has some sort of extended pedals so he can press them with whats left of his legs.


P.s and all these extra systems are damned expensive for a real car, and non existent for a sim wheel. The nearest there is, is the TM wheels with the progressive flappy paddle throttle and brake paddles ( but it's really hard to brake/shift down and blip the throttle all at the same time with one hand, whilst steering and looking left and right with the other )

Quote from Mazz4200 :

I'm not certain what Zanardi uses, but i think has some sort of extended pedals so he can press them with whats left of his legs.

Something like that I guess and that is really bit of my point, LFS should not be changed, but controls or then he should choose from available options which is automatic gears.


If I would been an accident and after a year from that I found myself at roof of burning house, only way to save my self would be run and jump to roof of next house, problem is I barely can walk with sticks.
Now would I ask that gravity would be changed so that I can levitate to safety? Of course not, I would die in horrible pains, crying oh why, year ago I would jumped easily, oh why I have to burn to death.

It is question of realism and as LFS has not much of damage modelling yet clutch acts pretty good replacement of damage, keeps people from abusing system.

Here is another example how ea ... to make clutch worthless

Lol, you've got such a wierd perspective on life JT, but you do make me laugh (and what the hell would you be doing on the roof in the first place, surely the door or a window would be the way to go ?)

I agree actually, the more realistic/hardcore the better. I really like the head shakey thing and the clutch heat in the new patch. I've been using the auto and managed to burn the clutch up a few times already. And as you say there are always ways to work around controller issues no matter how poor or how much of a gimp you are.

But lets be honest about things, when you have to start making compromises with your controllers you're never gonna be one of the quick guys, guess some folk can't accept that.

This car had a maybe badly modified engine with a clutch with unknown previews wear state…
And it still got 30 seconds to completely cook it… (00:40)
And I repeat for 4th time… now in LFS you can do that in an XFG with a brand new clutch in 3seconds …

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Most crips use automatic transmissions in road cars and a push pull system for throttle and brake.

I heard the Bloods use autos too. Not having to shift leaves you a free hand for shooting.

Quote from kaynd :

This car had a maybe badly modified engine with a clutch with unknown previews wear state…
And it still got 30 seconds to completely cook it… (00:40)
And I repeat for 4th time… now in LFS you can do that in an XFG with a brand new clutch in 3seconds …

There were also cars that cooked it in much less time above in the thread. SRT-4s have a heavy-duty clutch to begin with, and that clutch was seeing roughly 250ftlbs of torque.

Oh, and Chris's is black not blue :P

LFS is probably a tiny bit to sensitive in the road cars, but I have no hard data to back that up.

I did 24 laps in RB4, abused clutch every lap on T1, every pit stop and after every spin, also made few 180's after spin (I spin a lot) but all I got was tiny bit of clutch temp and I think RB4 should be car that really eats clutches because of AWD causing lot more resistance when launching as there is lot more grip.

Also for 24 laps only time I got tire temps high was when I put car purposely sideways on few corners and those cooled off in lap or two so much that I could push 100% again, even when red there was plenty of grip.

I don't see problem really

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

There were also cars that cooked it in much less time above in the thread. SRT-4s have a heavy-duty clutch to begin with, and that clutch was seeing roughly 250ftlbs of torque.

Oh, and Chris's is black not blue :P

LFS is probably a tiny bit to sensitive in the road cars, but I have no hard data to back that up.

Yes I can safely say THAT was NOT me =)

The SRT-4's factory clutch is rated for over 350 BHP which would put it at over 300ft-lbs of torque. The clutch is made aftermarket by sachs IIRC. I do not know if that car was factory or not, but based on the way he was driving it I would guess he hadn't done anything to the engine and just slid the clutch out too slow =)

I don't know either if it's too much for the road cars. I haven't seen any data either.

Until now I never burned the clutch, it just heats a bit at the start and then it stays.

But there's a question I'm asking myself: Is flat-shifting still an option (not for FBM of course) on a single qualifying lap? Has anyone tested that? Well I sure will this afternoon on a long track (Fernbay Black rev) with LX6 to see if the clutch can cope with that.

I think after driving some more last night, that initially the heat buildup seems perfect; but there should be a point where it's harder to _continue_ heating the clutch further. Materials don't gain heat at a linear rate due to friction, so it should remain the way it is but as it approaches the red zone it should become more difficult for it to retain heat. We do also need some smoke along with the overheating!

I think the racing vehicles are almost perfect right now though.

edit: and I never actually run into problems with the road cars, but doing a few starts seems to build up more heat than I would expect; gearing not withstanding. And I agree that shifting 1->2 in the LX agressively (flatshifting or not) causes too much clutch slip - that seems odd.\

edit2: no idea how the model works, but maybe there could/should be a max torque rating for the clutches in each car; something based on RL spec for the car type.

Is it possible that the main reason you overheat clutch...is that you do not feel acceleration in sims? (forgive me I am a bit obsessed with motion simulation)

I mean...without feeling acceleration it is difficult to know if the clutch is sliding or not, if we released the pedal too fast or not, where is the "biting" point of the clutch.

I did not try the patch, but is seems to me that handling properly a clutch in simulation is something quite difficult, as we clearly lack the way to estimate if we do it properly or not before it gets warm.

I couldn't agree any more with what you guys are saying. The clutch just simply overheats too quickly. The clutch doesn't cool down much for me when I'm racing but it certainly doesn't heat up. After a few spins or stops it begins to slip, and I'm decent on the clutch. In my mind it just heats up twice as fast as it should. Let hope this gets fixed, the sake of endurance racers! :hide:

Quote from BigTime :

I couldn't agree any more with what you guys are saying. The clutch just simply overheats too quickly. The clutch doesn't cool down much for me when I'm racing but it certainly doesn't heat up. After a few spins or stops it begins to slip, and I'm decent on the clutch. In my mind it just heats up twice as fast as it should. Let hope this gets fixed, the sake of endurance racers! :hide:

But why my clutch does not react like that?

Sure I can burn it when spinning when using auto clutch and being stubborn with throttle, but as I can see from clutch bar that clutch is half way engaged, I know that keeping it floored will fry my clutch. Spin those tires, don't slip clutch, I would say

Setting 1st gear to something sensible, like 30mph max works out too in street cars really well.

Quote from JTbo :

But why my clutch does not react like that?

Sure I can burn it when spinning when using auto clutch and being stubborn with throttle, but as I can see from clutch bar that clutch is half way engaged, I know that keeping it floored will fry my clutch. Spin those tires, don't slip clutch, I would say

Setting 1st gear to something sensible, like 30mph max works out too in street cars really well.

I think that would be a start =)

Everyone keeps saying 'but it doesn't feel right' well I challenge you to put a setup on your RL the same as a LFS setup and drive like most of you do and see what happens.

Everyone keeps saying it doesn't feel right, but thats not good enough you need some concrete data to hold up and say 'this is how a clutch is supposed to behave' I have yet to see anything significantly wrong with how the clutch is modeled. Perhaps a bit fast on the overheat, but I don't think it's anywhere near twice as fast.

But then how can I know? I have no car that can really relate to anything in LFS and I have not seen any data on how clutches burn =)

Well, we would have to start looking for CF for clutch material, do angular velocity calcs and then get Todd to help us put it together into something coherant

I totally agree with your Chris, I have "a hunch" that it might be too fast, but not by double.

I actually have car that is pretty close to XRG in paper.

My testing however did not produce much of clutch heat in normal driving, but I could not drive way I drive IRL.

That was caused by engine not having enough torque below 2000rpm, felt like some Focus 1.8 litre engine put in delivery van

But no clutch heat is not a problem there.

I'm used to have LOADS more low rpm torque, I don't need to touch accelerator in my real car when starting from level ground, even small uphill does not trouble, never ever I don't need more than 1500rpm not even there would be bunch load of fat grannies holding my car still.

Clutch is also biting quite soon of travel, it is ok if it starts to bite there but would be nicer to have it bite really only at half way travel and then fully when there is 1/3rd of travel left.

I did monitor clutch travel from blue clutch bar, not so much from pedal as pedal we can always adjust.

It is fine for racing use, IMO, but if one wants to learn how to drive stick, it is going to suck a bit at uphill take off. Not much of concern really.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I never actually run into problems with the road cars, but doing a few starts seems to build up more heat than I would expect; gearing not withstanding. And I agree that shifting 1->2 in the LX agressively (flatshifting or not) causes too much clutch slip - that seems odd.\

I'm wondering if that is partly due to the longitudinal grip issues in LFS. During a powershift from first to second, there are really only two places for the power to go, assuming no parts break: the clutch or the tires. The LX, XRT, etc all have enough power to break loose the tires during a hard 1->2 shift, but instead the clutch seems to slip. I have a feeling that the coefficient of friction for the clutch is lower than that of the tires to the pavement, which would seem to be incorrect.

It must be the way I drive IRL and in LFS but in about 6 hours of testing with the new patch I have cooked the clutch once and it was my fault. I had lost it in the FMB and tried to spin the car round to face the right way and messed it up cooking the clutch.

Apart from that I find lap after lap the temp does not budge at all.

I get the feeling some are pushing the car too hard because they could before and have built up bad technique because of this. It was the same when tyre heat was introduced and many people bitched they cooked their tyres in one lap and wondered why.

I get the feeling we will see setups changes as people are forced to use more realistic setups that are less harsh on the car.

Today's LX race I got comments that my gear changes take longer than other's, maybe it is because I wait auto clutch to do it's job before jumping to loud pedal as otherwise I create clutch slip.

I have been in situations going up a steep hill with many cars in front of you starting and stopping. You basically slip the clutch all the way up…
Also it is possible to keep the car stable stopped on a small hill by slipping the clutch in low rpm.
I know people doing that a lot, almost in every traffic light, and no one had any problems whatsoever… (I don’t like doing it because I know it stresses the clutch with no reason) I bet none who knows about car abuse that happens a lot when you are around 20-30yold… experienced the clutch getting loose so fast.

Why I continue whining about it? Because I thought that with proper clutch and tire model, by using the clutch you could get a benefit instead of just full throttle and jump of the clutch to have a perfect pull away…
Now with just one fast start using some slipping you can ruin your clutch or at least increase the temp worryingly so in the next mistake you are without clutch at all… So now even clutch model teach us that it is better on the start to just let go the clutch…

In the attached replay you can see the CT bar that gets red in 33 sec of sliping in around 2000-3000rpm with less than 1/5 of the clutch pedal release and less than ¼ of throttle @ an XFG…

Have you ever been in a trafic jam that lasts hours? if you had that kind of clutch in your car you would be off in 10minutes...


And i repeat... in racing, following some simple rooles, clutch is fine for infinite numper of laps... in AutoX layouts when will appear the need for more start-stop there is going to be really a problem...

I don't have a clutch pedal, so I use auto-clutch. Most of the times I don't have any trouble with the new clutch, except on the first lap, when I sometimes have to try 2 or 3 times before it will shift up (even though I release the throttle completely while shifting up).

Am I the only one to experience this? Is it because the clutch is still too cold?

Quote from FL!P :

I don't have a clutch pedal, so I use auto-clutch. Most of the times I don't have any trouble with the new clutch, except on the first lap, when I sometimes have to try 2 or 3 times before it will shift up (even though I release the throttle completely while shifting up).

Am I the only one to experience this? Is it because the clutch is still too cold?

Is this with new car?

If it is, try to shift so that you pull paddle and keep pulling it, same time lift throttle, or if you use stick gears keep stick in position.

It act so that you don't change simply touching gear lever, but you need to actually pull/push the lever, that should help.

Haven't noticed anything else that it could be.