Look at the rev counter - if that stays steady too, then speed is steady... It's EASY (in a Red Dwarf virus voice)
Borrow a naff motorbike and have a go at downshifting without the clutch - it's a great way to learn!
If you are braking on a corner approach, the engine is trying to go slower than the wheels, it resists being turned over as there is not enough fuel going in to explode and expand to drive it. If you are at zero throttle, the engine will always by trying to turn at idling rpm, much slower than the rpm it will actually be going unless you've left your downshift 2 weeks too late.
If you blip with the clutch engaged, that is, connected to the drive shaft, there is a transition from the engine slowing the rear wheels, to trying to accelerate them. In order to go through this transition, bang in the middle there is a point where the dogs are completely unloaded, and it is this point that allows the higher gear to be disengaged.
As the gearbox parts moves, the revs climb from the blip, and if you time it right, the dogs mesh with the new lower ratio at the right rpm for the wheel/gearbox speed.
This is a fine art, one that can be expensive to earn.
I will always go for mechanical sympathy where practically available because I believe it pays off not only as a calm, controlled driving style, but looks after the car as well.
If you're downshifting on a corner approach as you always are when time matters, it doesn't matter if your shift is fractionally slower because you don't need the engine to slow down the car, that's what the brakes are for.
That's what it feels like to me anyway.
lol at red dwarf reference
If you are braking on a corner approach, the engine is trying to go slower than the wheels, it resists being turned over as there is not enough fuel going in to explode and expand to drive it. If you are at zero throttle, the engine will always by trying to turn at idling rpm, much slower than the rpm it will actually be going unless you've left your downshift 2 weeks too late.
If you blip with the clutch engaged, that is, connected to the drive shaft, there is a transition from the engine slowing the rear wheels, to trying to accelerate them. In order to go through this transition, bang in the middle there is a point where the dogs are completely unloaded, and it is this point that allows the higher gear to be disengaged.
As the gearbox parts moves, the revs climb from the blip, and if you time it right, the dogs mesh with the new lower ratio at the right rpm for the wheel/gearbox speed.
This is a fine art, one that can be expensive to earn.
I will always go for mechanical sympathy where practically available because I believe it pays off not only as a calm, controlled driving style, but looks after the car as well.
If you're downshifting on a corner approach as you always are when time matters, it doesn't matter if your shift is fractionally slower because you don't need the engine to slow down the car, that's what the brakes are for.
That's what it feels like to me anyway.
lol at red dwarf reference
Not quite. You can blip to raise the revs while passing from one gear to the next. I've done it like that on every sequential I've driven. It clearly is a timing thing but it can be done.
Just for example. This is GT2 Porsche 911 RSR in a gearbox that is said from the factory has to be downshifted which the clutch. Clearly not the case and any sequential gearbox can be downshifted without the clutch and when done properly is no harsher on the gearbox than using the clutch on the downshifts.
In short, I'm able to blip on the downshifts right now without the clutch with no problem and no ill-effects on the clutch.
But that rev raise isn't isn't during "neutral" time on the gearbox is it? The revs come up with the ratio change, but it seems to me there'd be a spike in engine braking force as the revs come up.
I haven't driven a race car sequential, but on a motorcycle its very noticble and varys greatly by the rpm difference between the gears.
Example, clutchless downshift while crusing in town, 5k to 6k ish rpm - smooth as butter. Load the shift lever, blip the throttle and it snicks right into gear.
10k to 14k ish rpm clutchless downshift in the same manner - not pleasant as it takes a lot more time and force in the form of back torque to bring the revs up. I much prefer to use the clutch, and do a big old blip while I shift. Also helps that if I don't blip enough, the slipper clutch sorts it out
@Scawen:
I think there is something strange with cambers on FBMW:
for obtaining a small negative "real camber" u have to set a quite high positive "setup camber".
I don't know if this is a wanted thing or not, so is better to check it if is all ok.
In old versions of lfs the differences between real and setup cambers were not so big.
I think there is something strange with cambers on FBMW:
for obtaining a small negative "real camber" u have to set a quite high positive "setup camber".
I don't know if this is a wanted thing or not, so is better to check it if is all ok.
In old versions of lfs the differences between real and setup cambers were not so big.
That spike in RPM that corresponds to the throttle blip is the motor revving up from the blip and not the gear change. If it were the gear change you'd see the steering much more active than it is keeping the car straight plus the RPM's would maintain at a higher RPM for longer and come down more gradually. The spike in RPM's is nearly identical ascending as it is descending.
Not sure if this is what you meant, but the braking pressure measured is purely front brake pressure. How you downshift would have no effect on that measurement.
Also remember that the brakes are slowing the car down more than the engine could. So you won't feel any change in deceleration from the downshifts since the braking generates far more G forces than purely downshifting could. The only difference that makes is a brake balance in the car. If you make your downshifts such that you keep the RPM's very high you'll shifting a braking balance in the car to the rear some.
This means you agree with me that in LFS blipping is too hard/impossible, yes?
True. I can't remember what all of the actual display readout corresponds to in the image I posted.. I just remember the overall look as I spent a while time studying many hi-res photos of the FBMW cockpit when I started (but never completed) the cockpit for the rF FBMW mod, although Nick modelled the actual wheel (very nicely too
).Maybe the pit crew would be on the blower informing of such data if it was required, but I've never watched an FBMW race, so no idea what kind of pit technology / communication may be used in that series
Regards,
Ian
Scawen has probably defined the real car's setup camber as +-0 in LFS. You alter it by small increments over the base setup.
Probably not a bug, but maybe a feature that needs improving - you can flat-shift in the FBM with using "manual ignition cut". I mean hold gear-change and then 2 times tap the ignition button. Result is much faster gear change than with normal throttle lift, at least for mouse driver with 2.5 button rate 
(of course if you miss the second tap you will loose some speed until you notice you have engine off:schwitz
Or can you do this with the real car?
(of course if you miss the second tap you will loose some speed until you notice you have engine off:schwitzOr can you do this with the real car?
No I'd say the downshifts at the moment are as they should be. If anything the upshifts require you to be far too precise. That I would attribute to pulling on a switch where you either are 100% trying for a gearchange with the button or not at all. In real life you are putting a load on the gear lever and obviously we don't have the hardware to simulate that.
Hey Ian
The Dash gave very basic info. Water temperature, oil temperature, oil pressure, fuel pressure, lap time, rpm, and speed over two pages. The dash is very basic and was essentially impossible to read at a glance. I can't actually recall if the lap times were listed. I feel like they were and each time you tripped the timing beacon the dash would display in bigger numbers your lap time for a given period but I'm not sure.
Also, regarding the ignition cut 'trick'. That should work theoretically but I doubt anyone has ever done that in real life.
The car should also shift gears when bouncing off the limiter too as that is a trick some drivers used for a faster shift. However, it was inconsistent and sometimes the shift wouldn't happen right away resulting in losing time sitting on the limiter waiting for the car to shift. Again, any car with a hard ignition cut for an RPM limiter, like the FBMW has, can be shifting without lifting by shifting and touching the limiter at the same time.
Ah well, I guess that settles it, I just suck. :dazzersmi Thanks for the input. If you're bored maybe you could upload an spr replay of how a real racing driver clutchless blip-downshifts a FBMW to help us noobs.
True, we don't have the hardware to simulate the proper feel of a sequential gear shift lever, but I don't see where you have to be precise on upshifts in LFS. You can just pull the lever whenever you like, wait till the optimal shifting point and then lift the throttle a tad. Gear changed.
Yes but that is very unrealistic. It doesn't work that way in real life. You can't preload the gearbox like that and magically shift whenever the throttle is cracked momentarily. The effort required to keep the gearbox from trying to pull itself out of one gear into the next isn't enough to actually shift cleanly. Again, I think part of the difficulty in shifting up is the fact we have to use a switch to shift instead of a lever allowing a variable load. I do shift as you say for the higher gears but it feels wrong to me to be holding the shifter back for 4 or 5 seconds while waiting for the revs to climb. It is faster this way unfortunately as your lift can be much smaller.
Well, I guess you could. But only if you're really good friends with your mechanic(s), and have shares in a bearing company, a dog ring company, Hewland (or equivalent) etc.
That's how I shift gears on my sports bike, and the FBM uses a bikes gearbox, so I would say that it's gear changes are actually performing properly!
Why can't you just time your throttle lift to match the gear change pull? I don't understand why people find this difficult. Maybe 5+ years training in GPL is now paying off in LFS!
It's been covered already, I think.. the Hewland is not a bike gearbox, it's a specialized race gearbox.
J.B's tug-of-war scenario sounds like a reasonable analogy to me. When the relative strain in the tug of war between engine and gearbox is equalised (both teams are moving in the same direction at equal speed, or not moving at all.. no strain on the rope), a smooth clutchless shift becomes easy. Blipping the throttle on downshift causes the engine and the gearbox to become synchronously forced.. the change becomes possible after the blip, as the engine down-revs [edit-not down revs, but would if it were free-running] briefly in synch with the gearbox's dogs' deceleration.. allowing a window of opportunity to get out of one gear and smoothly into another while both engine revs and dogs rotation are sufficiently aligned. It all happens in a tiny space of time, but if you're leaning on the lever and the lever's travel is short, it should happen with a satisfyingly firm rubbery thunk
I do too slightly when doing standing starts on dirt bikes but I also don't put maximum force on the shifter. I apply a small amount of load first and then lift slightly along with pulling harder on the shifter. I think the small amount of load is starting the gear change as I lift off the throttle slightly and therefore I don't have to time my upshift exactly at the right time. Right now, LFS is putting essentially 100% force on the gearbox system and the second the throttle is cracked, the gear shift is made cleanly. If I didn't make that second move to complete the upshift in real life, usually I get a lot of chatter in the gearbox from not fully disengaging the current gear or not fully engaging the next gear.
Yes, and that's how I do it now for every shift but the shift from 5th to 6th and 90% of the time I get it right. I've adapted to what works best with LFS and it's becoming less of an issue but I'm pointing it out now that there is something different about how you have to upshift and the timing required. It's not all LFS fault as the hardware doesn't function exactly as it would in real life. In fact it's probably impossible to do it any other way without introducing other compromises along the way.
I though that was pretty much what a Hewland Sequential Gearbox designer described when talking about how to shift up:
Surely a real sequential gear lever will feel a lot different from this little plastic thingy on my DFP, but the process is the same and as long as we don't have proper sequential ffb shifters it's as close as it can get, I'd say.
EDIT: Sorry, I overlooked your last post, Tom. I think I get what your problem is now. It's that you virtually put full force on the gear lever in LFS before lifting the throttle, while in rL you'd only load up the lever a little before lifting the throttle. Still, I think the process is the same and it's as close to reality as we can come with the current hardware. But that's easy for me to say as I've never driven a sequential in rL
(except on a motorbike, but there I always clutched).Yes, you lightly load the lever *just before you shift, maybe for half a second at most*, and as you feel the lever move when the dogs unload you pull a bit harder to get the change, and then ease off so as not to ram it home too hard. We don't have that ability with current hardware, but you can 'simulate' the preload a bit. Unfortunately, we can also sit there preloading it all the time which you wouldn't get away with in reality.
Yep, got it, little bit of cross-posting going on there.
But that's basically how I do it in LFS as far as timing goes, except that I apply a constant force to the lever, and I don't feel that I have to be overly precise in that. The good thing is, that my hand is faster than my foot, so I think "shift" and concentrate on my hand pulling the lever. My foot will automatically lift a tad later than I pull and therfore it's timed just right.
It should not be in that way, for being simulative 0 degree on real car should be 0 degree on lfs car
You forget you do not set the camber directly, only the camber offset. Wheel camber is dynamic, your setup adjustment is not. It makes sense for 0 camber, with the given default set, to give a (static) live camber that matches with the real car.
I use a mouse with a sequential shifter (Mouse scroller)
I tested out the FBM, and I am not able to shift unless my car has fully let off the throttle, then I am only able to upshift in the FBM.
I tested out the BF1 and I can upshift no problem while having the throttle down.
Downshifting is fine in the FBM.
However, I've been getting strange results with other cars downshifting (Non pattle shifted cars).
Only with the clutch fully depressed... and I can't push the throttle past a certain limit. Then it will allow me to downshift.
I've also posted the error that I can't downshift only unless I have the clutch fully depressed. I also can't downshift without using a clutch. Again this error does not afftect the FBM
I think this could be along the same lines of the glitch I'm getting.
BUG REPORTS : Formula BMW
(133 posts, started )
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