I know that the whole realism vs game creates a whole heap of controversy, but I would like to put forwards my thoughts on the removal of the throttle cut and blip with patch Y. As a former heavy flight-sim nut I use a joystick for all of my gaming. The joystick also helps in that I just don't have the space or inclination at this point to go the whole wheel and pedals route. I have used this setup for years and have become reasonably adept at using it. Okay it may not be the most realistic, but it works and SAAB have experimented with replacing the wheel with a joystick, so maybe it's cutting edge!

The practical implications of this setup or any similar to it is that you cannot brake and accelerate at anytime. Therefore the loss of throttle blip when downshifting in latest patch has a profound effect on the likes of me. It seems to me that the loss of this option has been made without the full import of it being considered and how to address this feature. I can appreciate that it is more realistic... but then there are a series of fetures that make the implementation of the whole gear shift mechanism unrealistic. Let's consider the shiting options available now:

Sequential with autoclutch
In sequential shifting mode the auto clutch will operate at a fixed rate. This means that you risk locking the rear wheels when downshifting. It would have been better if forcing the loss of blip on downshift that the rate of clutch release was added as a configurable item so that you could prevent this, much as you would in a road car.

Sequential without autoclutch
Without the autoclutch enabled you have to enable a button or axis and use this simultaneously with the shift function to change gear. This is just a nightmare and will see you bouncing off the revlimiter and the walls as you perform the simulation equivlent of patting your head and rubbing your stomach. Additionally, one could argue that as you can shift in a road car without using the clutch (rev matching of course) then this is unrealistic.

Automatic
Normal service is resumed! Throttle cut on upshift and blip on downshift. At the moment this is the best option for anyone using a setup similar to mine, but it robs you of a whole layer of realism.

In Conclusion
By removing the option to cut/blip the throttle automatically LFS has at a stoke either alienated or reduced the realism for a whole host of players out there, a great many who may have been supporting the development for a long period of time. Furhermore it is likely to put off a lot of people who are just starting their sim racing, try the LFS demo and do not buy the S2 licence as a result.

I know that a lot of people will come back saying that it's a simulation and that I should either get pedals and a wheel or leave. I would counter this by asking how development will be effected if more people are put off by the addition of complexity of complexities sake? Also, if it's all about realism then why the option for automatic gear shifting?

For now I'm stuck with auto shifting and rather disappointed having only just bought an S2 licence and enjoyed it over the last few weeks soooo much. Maybe I'll have to dust off GPL again.

Quote from mjh93sa :

Okay it may not be the most realistic, but it works and SAAB have experimented with replacing the wheel with a joystick, so maybe it's cutting edge!

Ah, but they cheat! Their setup still has pedals which is where yours apparently fails.

Quote :

Also, if it's all about realism then why the option for automatic gear shifting?

So people can play it/try it out with a keyboard (or joystick :P) I guess. Also people with disabilities might benefit from that inclusion.

Honestly, if you don't want to get pedals (which you could use in flight sims) or don't want to make a DIY set (the good old gameport is dirt-easy to hook up to) then I'm afraid it's either resorting to using a button for either accel or brake or adding another joystick to your setup. Use the Y axis from the one joystick to accelerate and the Y axis from the other to brake.

Quote from mjh93sa :

I know that the whole realism vs game creates a whole heap of controversy, but I would like to put forwards my thoughts on the removal of the throttle cut and blip with patch Y. As a former heavy flight-sim nut I use a joystick for all of my gaming. The joystick also helps in that I just don't have the space or inclination at this point to go the whole wheel and pedals route. I have used this setup for years and have become reasonably adept at using it. Okay it may not be the most realistic, but it works and SAAB have experimented with replacing the wheel with a joystick, so maybe it's cutting edge!

The practical implications of this setup or any similar to it is that you cannot brake and accelerate at anytime. Therefore the loss of throttle blip when downshifting in latest patch has a profound effect on the likes of me. It seems to me that the loss of this option has been made without the full import of it being considered and how to address this feature. I can appreciate that it is more realistic... but then there are a series of fetures that make the implementation of the whole gear shift mechanism unrealistic. Let's consider the shiting options available now:

Sequential with autoclutch
In sequential shifting mode the auto clutch will operate at a fixed rate. This means that you risk locking the rear wheels when downshifting. It would have been better if forcing the loss of blip on downshift that the rate of clutch release was added as a configurable item so that you could prevent this, much as you would in a road car.

Sequential without autoclutch
Without the autoclutch enabled you have to enable a button or axis and use this simultaneously with the shift function to change gear. This is just a nightmare and will see you bouncing off the revlimiter and the walls as you perform the simulation equivlent of patting your head and rubbing your stomach. Additionally, one could argue that as you can shift in a road car without using the clutch (rev matching of course) then this is unrealistic.

Automatic
Normal service is resumed! Throttle cut on upshift and blip on downshift. At the moment this is the best option for anyone using a setup similar to mine, but it robs you of a whole layer of realism.

In Conclusion
By removing the option to cut/blip the throttle automatically LFS has at a stoke either alienated or reduced the realism for a whole host of players out there, a great many who may have been supporting the development for a long period of time. Furhermore it is likely to put off a lot of people who are just starting their sim racing, try the LFS demo and do not buy the S2 licence as a result.

I know that a lot of people will come back saying that it's a simulation and that I should either get pedals and a wheel or leave. I would counter this by asking how development will be effected if more people are put off by the addition of complexity of complexities sake? Also, if it's all about realism then why the option for automatic gear shifting?

For now I'm stuck with auto shifting and rather disappointed having only just bought an S2 licence and enjoyed it over the last few weeks soooo much. Maybe I'll have to dust off GPL again.

Change you setup and driving style to adapt and change your setups so they don't bite as much on downshifts.

You are using a control that is not ideal for driving a car.

Yep Saab and others have played with joysticks in prototypes. Guess what, they needed to add loads of electronics between joystick and car to filter and adapt the requests into requests that meant you did not crash.

What they added was probably not far off the old KB steer control system. THat will never come back and that is a good thing

Sorry, this is a sim

Quote from mjh93sa :

Also, if it's all about realism then why the option for automatic gear shifting?

Ever drove one of those cars that does the shifting for you? They are kinda boring IMO, although they exist in real life. Some people use them during racing, although it won't give you as much control as a manual transmission... Also the other reasons posted by xaotik.

The auto-blip and auto-cut were removed by Scawen for a reason and I'm sure he thought long and hard about it and the majority of the established community is strongly in favour of it. Sorry but you'll just have to make do. I assume your joystick has a throttle maybe you could consider using it?

As for the auto-shifting thankfully it's useless atm and I really hope it will disappear soon.

I'm a joystick driver as well. (I use sequential, autoclutch, have clutch bind to a joystickbutton)

Can't say i find no more downshiftblips a problem, although slightly awkward the first 3 minutes, i'm now completely used to it. You can downshift a little later then you used to, at lower RPM so there's less inertia messing up your car under braking. (not only throttleblips are gone, but also engines have gotten more inertia, which feels very good to me)
Maybe you'll even start to use it to your advantage, for example a well planned downshift will put the backside round slightly more at turn in which will help with some cars, etc. Also slightly underrevving wheels (after an agressive downshift with no blip) still give good brakeforce, it's just a matter of feel and use it to your advantage. (it seems my braking is as good or even better then before)
Also when not on the brakes you'll still manage to sneak in a throttleblip here and there at places. Not having them done for me just adds to the feel of realism and changes my way of shifting, which is good. When i'll finally buy a wheel my shifting will probably change again.

I think in a day or two you won't even notice the lack of blips anymore.

(Furious downshift madness shouldn't be much of a problem anyway if you're used to GPL with a joystick. I've been playing GPL since 1998 when it came out, a huge fan, but in LFS (that i discovered a couple of months ago) i finally found a worthy replacement/follow up to give me a realistic immersive racing experience. GPL's automatic throttleblips weren't always the most accurate either. )

I want it back! looks like i'm too fast for it
lots of gear change problems..

Quote from olson :

I want it back! looks like i'm too fast for it
lots of gear change problems..

If you read your own post back to yourself you wwill see that YOU are the problem with your gear changes. If you change your gear changes to what is required all the problems will go away

HTH

I can't see much reason why throttle blip shouldn't be allowed for those with a combined throttle and brake axis. It's not feasible to expect them to be able to do this themselves.

I can't think of a good reason for removing auto-cut or auto-blip. If it's not giving players who use it an unfair advantage, then leave it alone. It it was giving an advantage, then increase the auto-cut / shift time to remove the advantage.

As the original posted stated, players with combined throttle / brake axis have a good reason to want auto-cut and auto-blip in the game. Despite the goal of realisim, a lot of players are using controllers with combined throttle / brake axis, and they shouldn't be penalized.

In my opinion, auto-cut should be automatically triggered by the game when a flat shift is detected, to eliminate the advantage of flat shifting.

Personally, it's not an issue for me. I use CH USB joysticks. CH makes a user programmable software driver for it's USB devices, and the driver can be programmed to auto-blip and / or auto-cut, which I've now done for LFS.

Quote from JeffR :

I can't think of a good reason for removing auto-cut or auto-blip. If it's not giving players who use it an unfair advantage, then leave it alone. It it was giving an advantage, then increase the auto-cut / shift time to remove the advantage.

It gives the advantage of never having to experience mechanical failure (when they get implemented) or clutch overheating (if you really over-do it currently). We would come to the point where it would be removed sooner or later - so might as well do it now. I like being able to flat-shift a few times for the advantages it gives but I also like that I can't do it all the time or I'll have to "pay the price". It all adds more to the dynamic aspect of the gameplay.

Quote from xaotik :

I like being able to flat-shift a few times for the advantages it gives.

In real life racing, would flat shifting give a significant advantage?

Quote from JeffR :

In real life racing, would flat shifting give a significant advantage?

I presume that would depend on the car (specifically the car's gearbox - I doubt a normal road car would benefit much [but then again normal road cars don't have autocutting so... vicious cycle for you ]) and the power/torque bands. It might add a bit to acceleration - which is how I use it currently when coming out of a turn I didn't enter as neatly as possible and want to make up for the lost time.

Auto-blipping I can just borderline understand if you have combined axis, but auto-cutting I don't. Seriously how hard can it be to lift the throttle?
If you find lifting hard, I wonder how do you manage to breath?

Quote from geeman1 :

Auto-blipping I can just borderline understand if you have combined axis, but auto-cutting I don't. Seriously how hard can it be to lift the throttle?
If you find lifting hard, I wonder how do you manage to breath?

+1

Quote from geeman1 :

Auto-blipping I can just borderline understand if you have combined axis, but auto-cutting I don't. Seriously how hard can it be to lift the throttle?

Considering the cheesy plastic pedals that come with the cheaper wheel and pedals sets (I have a Momo racing wheel and pedals, and the pedals seem flimsy), wear and brakage of the pedals is a true concern. I would also find it fatiguing to constantly have to lift and press the throttle pedal quickly, because unlike a car, sitting in a normal chair doesn't provide ideal pedal movement the way it does in a car. I rarely use the wheel and pedals, because it's a pain to have to clamp it on and hook it up, so I use two joysticks on a clipboard instead, that I just set to one side of my desk when not in use.

get a set of pedal really, they just takes up floor space, and they are amazing for flight sims.

I use a joystick as well, and am fairly comfortable with that but it would have been nice if they left the throttle blip option at least. It really wouldn't hurt, and people that don't want it can turn it off... that's what options are for.

But then again, I do wonder just how important that really is. I haven't even noticed that much of a difference without it... If i lock things up then i let off the brakes a bit and it's fine. Assuming that i could blip on downshift, would it even matter? Unless you are extremely consistent and very good at this, how would you even know?

Quote from JeffR :

I would also find it fatiguing to constantly have to lift and press the throttle pedal quickly, because unlike a car, sitting in a normal chair doesn't provide ideal pedal movement the way it does in a car.

You don't have to depress the throttle completely - just enough to keep the revs up, which in most cars is not that match really (especially in the race cars). Also if ergonomics are a concern, then one has to modify their setup for sure - comfort and avoiding injuries from repetitive stress are a must for enjoyment.

Quote from JeffR :

I would also find it fatiguing to constantly have to lift and press the throttle pedal quickly

You need more exercise.
Run a bit. Lift weights. Do some calisthenics.

How can you get on with everyday chores if you are fatiqued so easily? Obviously you can't walk if pressing a pedal a few times makes you out of breath. Come on! Do something before you die of hart failure!

Lifting and pressing the throttle pedal is the only exercise I've had for years. My right calf muscle is developing nicely now.

Thanks Devs for this added fitness bonus

Quote from JeffR :

In real life racing, would flat shifting give a significant advantage?

In real life 'flat shifting' would result in a big repair bill.

Quote from JeffR :

Considering the cheesy plastic pedals that come with the cheaper wheel and pedals sets (I have a Momo racing wheel and pedals, and the pedals seem flimsy), wear and brakage of the pedals is a true concern.

No it's not, I'm heel and toeing (admittedly badly and the pedals aren't well placed) on a set of DFP pedals with a FF GP pedals for the clutch. My pedals haven't just fallen apart yet. Do you not turn your wheel incase you wear it out or because you're too weak to turn it seriously get out more