Hi Devs and all,

May I suggest that we need to increase the "cooling down speed" of the over heated tyres.

I am a drifter and a racer. (I know I have now opened a can of worms!!!) I know lots of u dont like drifting and think it is a load of crap and hate all drifters. But i enjoy the excitement of it, and its challenge for car control and unique techniques.

Every man has a different taste, so let's leave it at that...One thing I found in Patch Y was that tyres heat up so much quicker, within a lap or so. But they dont cool down quick enough.

If i was driving at 140km/h or faster in a straight line, combined with the rotational speed of the tyres at that road speed, the amount of wind chill effect on the tyre surface should be quite a lot and should cool the tyres down far quicker than it is now. Current values seem just way to small and unrealistic.

Also once they r red, overheated, they seem like ice, which gives no consistancy in grip levels and that is so different from real life.

In conclusion, may I say:

1. tyres need to cool down MUCH faster than now (when driving straight)

2. tyres should not feel like they r ice blocks when over heated.

3. grip level should be bit more consistant

Also, can I also suggest an "Arcade Mode" in LFS. It just keeps the tyre grip levels at a constant value (eg. green colour) not matter wot u do, along with other stuff like fuel level (weight/balance) etc. It should be very useful for testing and making a setup.

When u start LFS, an option comes up first, "arcade" or "simulation", then u play the game of ur choice. Same for multi player games, server chooses what game it will run and an option shows up next to the server's name on the server list, "arcade", just like "can reset" etc.

My 5 cents any way.

Quote from drift_apprentice :

When u start LFS, an option comes up first, "arcade" or "simulation", then u play the game of ur choice.

I like this idea. And if you choose "arcade" LFS should wipe your hard drive and then set fire to your house.

A nasty scissor should also come out of one of the DVD-ROMs and cut his balls off!

Quote from drift_apprentice :

Current values seem just way to small and unrealistic.

And here's where your thread basically fails: just because it seems to you, it doesn't mean, it is that way. Unless you can back your assumption up with data (which I assume you can't), your suggestion is invalid, as the tyres seem fine to me.

Since S2Y tyre-physics is merciless. One single misstake can "ruin" races. I like that!

"Take care for your tyres and they will take care for you!" - Highwave, 2005

Quote from drift_apprentice :

Also, can I also suggest an "Arcade Mode" in LFS. It just keeps the tyre grip levels at a constant value (eg. green colour) not matter wot u do, along with other stuff like fuel level (weight/balance) etc. It should be very useful for testing and making a setup.

Here you go, no tire or clutch overheating and no damage mode


Your post started badly with a silly argument I was looking forward to ripping apart then you used the word 'r' several times (Australian English?) then you suggested an arcade mode so I decided to laugh at you instead

You might be interested to note that the tire physics haven't changed on the road cars at all so it's either your imagination or you're doing something really wrong on gearshifts and finding the re-worked engines an issue.

Quote from ajp71 :

You might be interested to note that the tire physics haven't changed on the road cars at all so it's either your imagination or you're doing something really wrong on gearshifts and finding the re-worked engines an issue.

LFS Patch Y change list:

Quote :

Racing tyres generate more heat and wear more quickly

I must assume it also applies to "road normal" and "road super" tyres, because it's obvious to me and to other players that tyres heats up a lot quicker now. I had to raise tyre pressure on almost all my sets, so I don't think it's only my imagination.

Drifting seems to be more difficult now, as tyres overheat in less laps than before... I don't like it, but it's true I can't say what is more realistic.
I'd really like to know how long you can drift a car IRL before your tyres lose all grip.

Quote from Ricou :

I must assume it also applies to "road normal" and "road super" tyres, because it's obvious to me and to other players that tyres heats up a lot quicker now. I had to raise tyre pressure on almost all my sets, so I don't think it's only my imagination.

It could also just be that by not blipping the throttle you're adding some extra heat on downshifts by locking up.

Quote from Ricou :

LFS Patch Y change list:


I must assume it also applies to "road normal" and "road super" tyres, because it's obvious to me and to other players that tyres heats up a lot quicker now. I had to raise tyre pressure on almost all my sets, so I don't think it's only my imagination.

No only R1, R2 and R3. R4 and all other tires are unaffected, if you trawl through the test patch threads you'll find a post where Scawen says this.

Quote :

Drifting seems to be more difficult now, as tyres overheat in less laps than before... I don't like it, but it's true I can't say what is more realistic.

You have adjusted camber haven't you? The default camber positions of some of the cars changed in the patch, hence Scawen said that old setups were obsolete.

Quote from xaotik :

It could also just be that by not blipping the throttle you're adding some extra heat on downshifts by locking up.

I've been using manual clutch for some time now. I was blipping the throttle before, and I still do, so this isn't to take into account.

Quote from ajp71 :

You have adjusted camber haven't you? The default camber positions of some of the cars changed in the patch, hence Scawen said that old setups were obsolete.

Mmm, I was'nt aware of this. It can explain these changes.
I'll have a look at the real camber with the suspension view before and after Y patch.
It would be good to have some translation tables which would give how much camber to add/substract in order to have the same setup with the new patch...

AHA! This camber change must be the reason I cook my fronts. I too would like to have the info on which cars and how much camber has changed.
I don't have the X installed on my comp anymore so if someone could gather the info I would appreciate it.

I´ve all my old X-sets tweaked to Y:

Less camber, more pressure, less brakepower, more brakebias to front.

I just tryed patch Y for a few days and today i tested the fo8 on kv long.
With the old (race)setup, i cooked r2 tyres to over 150 celcius within three laps. So i switched to realistic camber and tyre pressure on r3. Now the tyres heat up must slower, but.. they never cool down on straights. So i end up with overheated tyres after 4(long) laps.

I also tested on kv national, reducing camber front and rear dramaticly. one tyre gets overheated within one lap and all tyres are too hot after two laps. The same setup (with a lot more negative camber) i used in patch x which could do 30 laps in patch 'x' and stay close to wr time with over the entire 30 laps(if fuel load is low enough..).

So i agree to that the tyres get overheated too fast now. I think too, the tyres should cool (much) faster on straiths. Or at least, tyre temps in the real world are not as critical as it is in lfs is now.

I do like the other changes though, such as clutch heating and more realistic gearboxes.

Quote from Bluebird B B :

I just tryed patch Y for a few days and today i tested the fo8 on kv long.
With the old (race)setup, i cooked r2 tyres to over 150 celcius within three laps. So i switched to realistic camber and tyre pressure on r3. Now the tyres heat up must slower, but.. they never cool down on straights. So i end up with overheated tyres after 4(long) laps.

I also tested on kv national, reducing camber front and rear dramaticly. one tyre gets overheated within one lap and all tyres are too hot after two laps. The same setup (with a lot more negative camber) i used in patch x which could do 30 laps in patch 'x' and stay close to wr time with over the entire 30 laps(if fuel load is low enough..).

So i agree to that the tyres get overheated too fast now. I think too, the tyres should cool (much) faster on straiths. Or at least, tyre temps in the real world are not as critical as it is in lfs is now.

I do like the other changes though, such as clutch heating and more realistic gearboxes.

Ky circuits can be very hard on tyres though. A lot of long, high-speed corners make tyres accumulate heat in a short number of laps. Try Fern Bay and see if you notice a difference.

I know that this is not directly relivent but, in the wet when i stopped my real world car (yes they exist outside our bedrooms ) my tyres were allways steaming a lot and quite warm to the touch, for fun one day i drove the car at 90 banana's per shooping bag (imperial) down the motorway, so no corners or anything left the motorway and gently braked into a parking bay and used the temperature probe from work, to my supprise the temps were 42 C inside and 38 C outside of the front tyre and 36 C and 35 C for the rear.

I suppose my tyres (Bridgestone RE70's) are closest to 'super road' tyres as they are pretty soft and a very hard sidewall and is treaded almost like a cut slick (with the wet performace to-boot )

What im trying to say here is that rolling along at a fair speed is going to stop any rapid cooling down of any 'soft' tyre.

It does annoy me that a simple quick slide can end up with one tyre that is super hot, knocking a second off laps to make it round safely and try and keep the tyre from avalanching (sp?), these things will eventually get tweaked though.


Simon

Quote from FlintFredstone :

I know that this is not directly relivent but, in the wet when i stopped my real world car (yes they exist outside our bedrooms ) my tyres were allways steaming a lot and quite warm to the touch, for fun one day i drove the car at 90 banana's per shooping bag (imperial) down the motorway, so no corners or anything left the motorway and gently braked into a parking bay and used the temperature probe from work, to my supprise the temps were 42 C inside and 38 C outside of the front tyre and 36 C and 35 C for the rear.

I suppose my tyres (Bridgestone RE70's) are closest to 'super road' tyres as they are pretty soft and a very hard sidewall and is treaded almost like a cut slick (with the wet performace to-boot )

What im trying to say here is that rolling along at a fair speed is going to stop any rapid cooling down of any 'soft' tyre.



Simon

The tyres of my real world car also had a tendency to get warm, the cause was way too much toe-in on front and rear(0,5 (!) degrees). I got it fixed and my tyres stay cold now with normal driving. On vacation in Luxemburg, last summer, i got the tyres to about 45-50 celcius with enviroment tempature of about 25 celcius. But it took a lot of hairpins and hard braking in the hills to get them so "hot".

Also cheaper tyres will usually get hot sooner. "High performance/sportscar" tyres will stay cooler because they need to or they wont be able to handle speeds of over 240km/h or the high loads of fast cornering.

Anyway, i think tyre tempature is important, but i think lfs is too much about tyre temps now. r2's and r3'2 should not get overheated so fast.

Thats a GREAT idea.










NOT

Wear the tires down to almost paper thin and be amazed at how quickly they cool off. Not even South City can keep R3 fronts hot on an UFR.

on straights tyres HEAT UP, not cool down. The rotation is fast enought that the centrifugal force streches the tires and generates heat. Thats why driving on motorways then gently coasting to a stop makes the tires warm. If you cook a tyre, it will STAY cooked. to lower temp you have to accelerate more slowly, brake a LOT easier and turn a hell of a lot slower.

The thing that usually cooks tires tho0ugh, is oversteering. Try to lower the steering angle (say, from 30º down to 18º), turn the wheel as you usually do, and youll find you should be able to go around the corners as fast as before, but with less temp.
To check for this, save a replay of a fast (and tire-wise hot) lap, then view the replay from a custom camera near the front wheels, looking back, with the body of the car not drawn. Youll notice that in most corners you are turning the wheels too much - much MUCH more than needed.

What you are describing is understeer, not oversteer. But the rest of your argument is true, almost.

In LFS when tyres slip they heat up.

In real life they heat up from deformation too.
This is why tyres heat up even when driving in a straight line.The tyres sidewalls and contact patch are squished by the cars weight and that is what creates the deformation while driving normally, in real life. Centrifugal forces have very little to do with this.
In racing conditions the sharp turns, heavy braking and rapid acceleration cause more agressive deformation and as a result more heat.

IRL sliping causes heat too. When you lock up the tyres while braking. Spin the tyres while accelerating. Under- or oversteer in a corner. All these add to the heat load of the tyre.

In short: If you drive normally (every day trafic) your tyres wont cool down while going straight. As the heat load in the bends is not significantly greater.
If you race the heat load on the tyres is much greater in the bends than on the straights so your tyres will cool down while going straight, but not much. This is because the time spent on the straights is relatively short compared to the time spent in the bends.

Cool down quicker? They cool down pretty damn fast as is. I had cooked my tired to 130 degrees yesterday in the FXR, and within about 4 laps they were back down to a healthy-ish 110. Unless you're shooting your tires with liquid nitogen, they shouldn't cool down any quicker than that.

Opened a can of worms! Just like what I expect!

I agree with some of you guys, I was only suggesting, PLEASE, no need to get personal, I was not saying "WE MUST HAVE AN ARCADE MODE!!!!" or similar, wasn't I? After all, this is only the "improvement SUGGESTION" area.

You have an idea, put in on the table, let's all hear it and put in our constructive criticism, NOT personal attacks!! Especially regarding my short hand writing etc.

As I said, everyone has a different taste, so we have different interests. Instead of backing up ur idea with a valid background, some of u guys just jump in and talk like ruthless teenagers. So well educated!! A lot of ppl here try to insult other in every way they can. I'm so sick of it from reading all the threads.

For god's sake, it is not a war zone here....

Thanks drift_apprentice. I can not see why people get sort of upset by some suggestions posted in these forums, or to slam people for using short hand, if it is readable that is.

Anyway, I understand the need for an arcade type selection as you have suggested. Because even though LFS is heading for a full simulation experience, the fact that the feel of the driving experience is so good, people will want this game to do everything (including myself), and that would include non simulation things. Why would people want to settle for an inferior game (sorry, simulation) to have the enjoyment/simulation level they are after (exactly, they wouldn't, they want LFS to do the lot).

I don't like all the changes that are made, but LFS is unrivaled as a whole, so I feel I must put up with it or make a suggestion, like having a manual instead of a sequential in a extreme road race car, ie XRR , or giving more car/road feedback to the G25's like netkar pro , and not rolling down a slight hill when in gear and not already moving .

As far as tyre temperatures (and I must admit that I do not know), I have heard that when drifting, the contact surface heats up more than the inner temperature, meaning that the tyre whilst still overheating would in fact cool down a bit quicker than normal due to the fact the tyre temperature as a whole has not risen considerably, but only the now thinner outer rubber has?
Also as mentioned, the fact that race tyres are designed for a higher heat tolerance, when not accelerating or causing stress on the tyre through cornering or braking, and not driving at speeds near the rating for the tyre, and only after none of those stresses are applied, it would in fact cool down by the air more than the friction on the road surface (lets say when coasting only at less than 70% of the rated speed, it starts to cool down a bit quicker, not withstanding strange camber angles etc.)

Again, I am no tyre expert, but do keep posts constructive people. A post that only flames or does not make people laugh will not help in the development of the best driving simulation ever made .

Awaiting the next test patch...

Live for Speed Online Racing SIMULATOR.

An arcade mode would ruin the whole fun about LFS which is the realism part. ( at least for me)

I keep hearing about people who want arcade mode. If you want that you got the wrong ''Game".

Constantly ''green'' tires would help to make setups but when you pratice or make a setup for a race usually in a race the tires start heating up progressivly and therefore you should practice to adapt your racing to the change of heat which is progressive.

Quote from drift_apprentice :

...
Also, can I also suggest an "Arcade Mode" in LFS. It just keeps the tyre grip levels at a constant value (eg. green colour) not matter wot u do, along with other stuff like fuel level (weight/balance) etc. It should be very useful for testing and making a setup.

When u start LFS, an option comes up first, "arcade" or "simulation", then u play the game of ur choice. Same for multi player games, server chooses what game it will run and an option shows up next to the server's name on the server list, "arcade", just like "can reset" etc.
....

Go play Need for Speed, not Live for Speed...