assists

From the LFS main web page: "... No arcade modes, no steering aids ... highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse ... ".

There's no mention of throttle and brake configuration, much less any recommendation, or warning, that players with combined axis for throttle and brake would be later penalized by an update to LFS after purchasing a copy that didn't penalize them. Yet, patch Y has done just that with the removal of auto-blip, because it's not possilbe to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup. Instead of removing auto-cut and auto-blip, these options could have been modified to lessen the advantage of using them, similar to the keyboard steering modification made a long time ago. With the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, LFS is no longer the game affected players paid for.

Regarding assists in general, there's only the reference to arcade modes and steering aids. There's no reference to the assists that are included in real world cars, ABS, traction control, stability control, or semi automatic transmissions, or the assists such as auto-blip or auto-cut.

realism

When questioning the realism of the restiction on what tires can be used on what cars, or the recent clutch overheating factor, a common response is that many of the cars of LFS represent typical road cars. But the cars in LFS represent race modified versions of those typical road cars. Note these features:

Brakes that don't fade - Obviously no car with brakes prone to fade will pass safety inspection at any sanctioned race, so the cars in LFS have properly upgraded brakes.

Braking force and bias adjusment - This would be a significant upgrade to the braking system on a typical road car.

Steering lock adjustment - This would require replacing the steering pinion gear and rack with a custom set.

Gearing adjustment - This would require replacing all the gears in the transmission and rear end in a car. LFS uses floating point numbers, instead of tooth counts on the gears that most other racing games use (convenience over realism here?).

Camber and toe adjustment at the rear on rear wheel drive cars - This requires independent rear suspension, a major upgrade to a typical rear wheel drive road car, such as the XR GT.

Shock, spring, and ride height adjustment - This would require replacement of the entire suspension system in a typcial road car.

Adjustable limited slip differential - Another major upgrade to a typical road car.

Independent rear suspension isn't rare on RWD cars.

The 2nd gen RX7 (Which the XR's always remind me of) has independent rear suspension.

The rest of the world stopped using leaf springs or live axles a long time ago for RWD sports cars

1) Why would anyone use a combined axis setup? What do they gain by using it, even before Patch-Y? Practically all consumer wheels have the option to split the axes.

2) Scawen has stated that even the roadcars have racecar attributes to them. But furthermore, to explore what capabilities the car really has, and to see if any potential issues the physics might have. At the moment, without such a wide array of settings, you would'nt be able to find the issues people have seen with say... full front arb in the fwd car, or locked differential for any of the cars. I think in the future, things will become limited, and patch by patch we have seen this with a few options being limited further. I of course would still like to see a completely stock set of roadcars with only minor available adjustments on them.

3) There is no brake fade, so don't bother saying they have upgraded brakes.

Quote from Syfoon :

The rest of the world stopped using leaf springs or live axles a long time ago for RWD sports cars

Don't bother mentioning that to JeffR, when he owns(owned?) a new Corvette Z06 which uses leaf springs .

Quote from Tweaker :

1) Why would anyone use a combined axis setup? What do they gain by using it, even before Patch-Y? Practically all consumer wheels have the option to split the axes.

Some people still have old wheels.

Before I splashed out the amazing amount of cash (... £20... lol) for my wheel, I borrowed some horrible old thing that only had combined axis.

God, it was horrible.

I really don't understand the purpose of your thread here -

No matter what your complaint(s) its a game that is still in development so things will change over time, some things you may like and some things you may not.

The devs want to make things as realistic as possible (eventually) so if you don't use a realistic controller - you will be compromised.

Brakes that don't fade - Simply because that bit hasn't been coded yet. Nothing more.

Braking force and bias adjusment - It remains, although the majority of posts I've seen favour its removal

Steering lock adjustment - As above

Gearing adjustment - As above

Camber and toe adjustment at the rear on rear wheel drive cars - XRT has double wishbones all round iirc. Camber and toe both adjustable (with the proper equipment) on solid axles too. I think many would like to see it removed from the UF1 and XFG etc.

Shock, spring, and ride height adjustment - Shock upgrades common and plentiful for track use. Springs take about 20 minutes to change, and MANY are available in any size you like for surprisingly little money. Ride height can be achieved using spring lengths or easily available/fittable coil-over replacements.

Adjustable limited slip differential - And many of, as above, would like to see more limitations

I'm afraid using non-finished portions of the game to discuss the validity of something you don't like (which also probably isn't finished anyway) because you are too bone idle to use sensible controllers. Don't have split axis controllers? Then drive without blipping - you'll be a bit slower, and you won't be driving using the same style as the quicker guys, but why should LFS dumb-down for those without controllers? It's a sim. You can play it with virtually any controller, but why should they be assisted to be just as good?

Is LFS elitist? No more than any other simulation title. And certainly no more than it needs to be.

I reckon these days with volant fine - plus I had airplanes controller

Quote from JeffR :

There's no mention of throttle and brake configuration, much less any recommendation, or warning, that players with combined axis for throttle and brake would be later penalized by an update to LFS after purchasing a copy that didn't penalize them. Yet, patch Y has done just that with the removal of auto-blip, because it's not possilbe to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup. Instead of removing auto-cut and auto-blip, these options could have been modified to lessen the advantage of using them, similar to the keyboard steering modification made a long time ago. With the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, LFS is no longer the game affected players paid for.

Ummm. You bought a racing simulator that stated it is meant to be as realistic as possible without helping the player. Those players that are complaining that things have been removed that they had paid for have a few options - if they were smart the would have backed up before updating thus allowing them to play on the older version. Offline it may be but its still the exact game you paid for.

Secondly the game is in ALPHA stage and NOT finished. Its not like you paid for a complete project. Should we be upset that our beloved Blackwood changed as well? No, its an unfinished project and the developers are doing brilliant work.

And finally there is a post somewhere about people complaining about Patch Y. And unless I read this wrong it would be considered complaining about Patch Y. In a different way then most have, and a slightly more valid response but still, the simulator is in the process of getting better..

Quote from JeffR :

...
There's no mention of throttle and brake configuration, much less any recommendation, or warning, that players with combined axis for throttle and brake would be later penalized by an update to LFS after purchasing a copy that didn't penalize them.
...

Of course there is:

LFS License Agreement

Quote :

1. General
...
1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.
...

There, problem solved, the thread can be closed now.

Quote :

Yet, patch Y has done just that with the removal of auto-blip, because it's not possilbe to blip the throttle while braking with a combined axis setup

This targets me. I'm one of those who has a combined axis setup with an ancient wheel. I'm not complaining. Why? It's physically impossible for me to blip with a 2 pedal setup (even if the axis were separate) unless I press a button for the clutch - something I refuse to do because it's not realistic. A 3 pedal setup that has combined throttle/brake doesn't make sense to me - so I doubt one even exists (correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm all for this change. If I had a 3 pedal setup, I want to be awarded for working my butt off during a race with fancy footwork. I don't want the average joe schmoe with a gamepad to be out-braking me without putting any effort into it. Even if the auto-blip assist was made to be slightly slower, I still wouldn't like it. Humans make errors - computers don't.

In fact, in the future if h-shifters are more common place, I wish there was a way to prevent paddle shifters from being used on cars which do not have paddle shifters like the XRG, XRT, RB4, GTI, etc.

You guys already explained all this sh*t to him in the other thread.

He is just trolling now, unless he truly doesn't get it. If so, you all might as well drop it. Some people never understand and you will just waste time with the issue.

I wish there was an 'ignore thread' feature on web forums, like I can do with usenet, because this thread will be around for awhile and I will see it all the time and be dismayed that people are still dancing around the 'issues' with JeffR.

Quote from AndroidXP :

LFS License Agreement ... 1.4 You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

I sit corrected, this is a valid point.

update - I was never affected by these changes, but was concerned of it's impact on other players here. I no longer plan to be an advocate for the combined axis or any other players, they can post for themselves.

Quote :

Corvette Z06 which uses leaf springs

Transverse leaf springs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springs

Quote from Technique :

It's physically impossible for me to blip with a 2 pedal setup (even if the axis were separate) unless I press a button for the clutch - something I refuse to do because it's not realistic.

I'm sorry, that's a (rather common?) misconception... Blipping on downshifts with autoclutch on is perfectly possible... The clutch is operated by LfS and while it's doing its work, you quickly dab the throttle... I've been doing this since I've started with LfS, and still do it in league races...

I raced, and figured out how to blip on downshifts with combind axis.

If you take the time to learn and think about it instead of instantly saying "THEY CAN'T DO THAT!" you'd have figured it out to.
I'm not bashing, or being sarcastic, I just find that alot of people jump the gun when devs change something in there game/mod. I've watched alot of games and mods grow from a small project up to a finnished product and there's always people jumping all over the developers instead of correcting there own bad habits.
Auto-cut is the worst thing they could have added in the first place, it got alot of people dependant on it.

Assign a button to clutch, keep the clutch in while braking and just as you finnish braking, move your foot to the accelerator and push it down enough to match the revs, then let the clutch out and get on the gas.

Learning to drive that way helped me with my lap times alot, even before patch Y.

Quote from DragonCommando :

I raced, and figured out how to blip on downshifts with combind axis.

If you take the time to learn and think about it instead of instantly saying "THEY CAN'T DO THAT!" you'd have figured it out to.
I'm not bashing, or being sarcastic, I just find that alot of people jump the gun when devs change something in there game/mod. I've watched alot of games and mods grow from a small project up to a finnished product and there's always people jumping all over the developers instead of correcting there own bad habits.
Auto-cut is the worst thing they could have added in the first place, it got alot of people dependant on it.

Assign a button to clutch, keep the clutch in while braking and just as you finnish braking, move your foot to the accelerator and push it down enough to match the revs, then let the clutch out and get on the gas.

Learning to drive that way helped me with my lap times alot, even before patch Y.

I'd like to see any throttle modulation from you while braking hard... Can you provide us a replay of exactly that?

Quote from bbman :

I'm sorry, that's a (rather common?) misconception... Blipping on downshifts with autoclutch on is perfectly possible... The clutch is operated by LfS and while it's doing its work, you quickly dab the throttle... I've been doing this since I've started with LfS, and still do it in league races...

I see, thanks for clearing that up. The OP's original post makes more sense now.

The rest of my argument still stands though. You're doing alot more work every lap than someone with auto-blip.

Now that I think about it, you have two advantages over someone with a proper 3 pedal setup:
1) You don't have to push in the clutch
2) Since your left foot is free, you can use it to brake while your right foot simply has to blip the throttle - someone with a proper setup has to do a bit more work with their right foot.

That's not very realistic I guess it will be fixed once they remove auto-clutch

Wha wha wha. I use unrealistic controllers even though I have a wheel. I have bitched in many many different patch Y threads but I still don't think I have been heard so I am starting a new thread.

You really are starting to remind me of when the perfect keyboard help was removed. Some bitched and the rest adapted. I guess we see which of these you are.

It is possible to downshift without a blip, just change down LATER so there is not such a huge rev difference. It's no wonder you can't drive as a real race driver would, you are not using the same controllers a real race driver would. Instead you use 2 joysticks BY CHOICE because we KNOW you have a good wheel.

Says it all!

MODS: Please merge this pointless thread into the rest of the noise JeffR appears to have created about blip being removed. All the high profile threads appear to be the same with a different title. Something a noob person on the forum would get a warning or a talking down for.

Thanks

Quote from JeffR :

....
Brakes that don't fade - Obviously no car with brakes prone to fade will pass safety inspection at any sanctioned race, so the cars in LFS have properly upgraded brakes.
.......

All breaks fade every material has its limits regardless of any upgrades.

Quote :

other thread ... being affected by removal of auto blip

The other thread was about clutch oveheating. This thread is about assists and to point out the fact that cars in LFS represent race prepped cars because of the setup options, and are not typical road cars as mentioned in a few posts here.

Regarding the removal of auto-cut and auto-blip, I was never affected because I already have macros for auto-cut and auto-blip for my joysticks (the virtual throttle and brake axis are separate with my controllers software). I was just trying to be an advacate for those actually affected, since some of them might be unwilling to post about this because of the type of responses posted in this thread.

Quote :

All brakes fade, every material has its limits regardless of any upgrades.

Racing brakes, being designed for racing, won't fade unless there is some type of failure. The stock brakes on many standard road cars will quickly fade after just a few laps under race conditions.

Quote from JeffR :

I was just trying to be an advacate for those actually affected, since some of them might be unwilling to post about this because of the type of responses posted in this thread.
.

So you just posting because you felt like defending those poor bastards that cant post for themselves? Seens pointless to me since you cant really know what someone elso is thinking/feeling, if they feel like they have something to say, them they will, if not, too bad.

Im actually one of those persons who has a wheel that doesnt have separated axis, instead of posting in the forum, crying for assits, im trying to get used to it.

Quote from JeffR :

Racing brakes, being designed for racing, won't fade unless there is some type of failure. The stock brakes on many standard road cars will quickly fade after just a few laps under race conditions.

Before you go out post some link from wikipedia and try to make yourself sound authoritative, you really should just acknowledge your lack of common knowledge.

On numberous conditions braking on racing cars are running to their critique limit, just for example in canada and monza, drivers have to use more engine braking to lessen the work load of the foot brake, and brake disc had disintegrated in the end of races as well. F1 :http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/3796099.stm

and this is from FIAGT - endurance racing cars that are supposed to have more tolerance in their parts:

"The 2nd race on Sunday wasn’t much more successful. Bera - Vannelet was again the fastest PSI Porsche on the track, but this time they suffered from overheating and eventually burning brakes during the pitstop and lost there valuable time and the chance for a podium result. "

You can't do it while braking, but you can blip once just as you reach the end, it doesn't give you the satisfaction of hearing the car rev a zillion times when you downshift, but at least you don't get the rear kicking out from dumping the clutch on a slow engine.

Like I said, its all about learning how to use your equipment instead of looking at its short comings, and than saying you need a helper because of them.

I could make a replay, but you'll have to wait untill I rebuild my pedals, I toasted them during a hotlap last week.

LFS is what it is, live with it, or use something else, I really can't see the big issue.

Quote from danowat :

I really can't see the big issue.

Me either.
In fact there is no issue, because anyone who purchased S2 would have read the license agreement (posted above) which states that the game is gonna change. Why are people so shocked and surprised when it does?

I don't see the problem in allowing auto-blip for combined axis users only, it's a controller option, not a realism issue in my opinion.
We are also free to question the devs about their decisions in a reasonable manner as JeffR has done and they have shown they are quite reasonable in listening to and considering community feedback.