Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Comment from the peanut gallery:

I find it interesting that 25kg is making this much of a difference. Last season in the LOTA Grand Touring Cup, iirc rcpilot and forbing were routinely running with +80kg and losing only about a second a lap. That's +80kg on top of whatever the master server weight penalty was.

it's wierd yes, but it feels 100% different when you drive car with 20 or 25 kg.

Quote from Bawbag :

Ok so, the XRR was quite weak here but we seemed to have fixed the problem of our crappy pace and can get quite close to the FZR except for the fastest lap I think.

39.1 was my best in a stint I just done, still think that the FZR is quite alot faster as I saw Bas doing a 51.5 split earlier (I think) which is good for mid 38s, but whatever, it's not as bad as it was atleast.

Don't think that the FZR is quite fast enough for a weight penalty, although I bet when we see Chris hauling past us in the race i'll wish I didn't say that.

If anyone needs to compare the times for any blaancing questions I done my stint online so the laps are on there.

and now bawbag drove stint with FZR again and said on My3id Gaming server how 25kg is too much.

and to explain why 20 and 25kg is so much I'll show percents of 5kg on 25 and 30 kg.

5 kg means 16% difference between 25kg and 30kg
5 kg means 20% difference between 20kg and 25kg

This might help, GT2 FXR was running 23% GT2 XRR normal 25%

Rays restriction for this race ?

SD.

Information not arguments please time is of the essence.

Was 0 on that stint.

25 is to much imo, 20kg was nice, needs more testing though.

Going to have a good of it later and try to fix my setup.

n/m

Quote from Clownpaint :

Then at Westhill the XRR had an advantage, yet no ballast was given, it was allowed to comfortably take victory with less pit stops and faster lap times. Nobody questioned this.

The XRR and FZR were balanced in terms of speed at Westhill just look at the eTM results, you'll notice even Jesse putting down the fastest time with FZR - So where was Jonesy's advantage there? The only disadvantage you FZR lot had at the MoE was that your tyres and setups were rubbish with the added 80kg, but a few weeks on and everyone in the FZR starts to haul ass just like that?

It also looks as if 20KG is OK although I haven't tested anything and this is all from Ray saying so.

@Paul, see your PM. To clarify it a bit: Every post made will need to be validated due to the possibility of a colored point of view. Ergo it's less black and white than the way it is stated.

Looks like using an additional 20kg for tomorrow's test race may be more in place given the info provided in this thread.
Thanks for the input everyone! It seems we're getting there.

GT2 feedback:
We did some GT1 & GT2 runs earlier tonight, and at the end just went into qual to do a few qual laps. Duck managed to do a 48.7 (maybe 2 other high 48s/v.low 49s) in the race around the 20th lap but that was pretty much the peak of the setup (tyre heat mainly i think), but with a qual setup he hit 2:48.3 and tried for 2:47's but failed, however bawbag didnt. The smug git did 2:47.9x with a low psi run, certainly not race pace lap/setup and he'd also done low 2:48s in the FXR earlier on too, i suspect in a similar manner. I know its fastest lap isnt an important aspect, but thought i'd point out the car is certainly capable of laps i wouldnt have expected (same for XRR) and wouldnt have been further than 0.4 appart.

I've still not seen a full FXR stint to know exactly how far they go before pitting, but suspect its still around L27 (26-27), compared to the 23 laps i suspect we'll be aiming to do. 24 laps is too hit 'n' miss, and our faster drivers (Bio & Duck) have fallen at 20-21 a couple of times because they're being overly aggressive, which they cant afford to be on the day.

I think lap for lap, they're now very close, the XRR does start to pull away about 13 laps in once the tyre heat is sensible, from what ive seen of the FXR its almost irrelevently quicker in those opening 13, and it also starts to picks up more pace around the same lap, but definately isnt as quick then. With the extra 3-4 laps to their stints (maybe 2-3 stops less? in 24h) they're probably a little too close considering how easy they are to drive, but a bigger concern to me is the fact that they can hop in & out of gravel without a problem, and losing >3min from shift+p when theres next to no speed advantage on a track certainly not suited to the FXR (1 slow stop-start section vs plenty of sweeping/flowing corners) they're instantly at an advantage the moment they or an XRR goes into the gravel, because they're untroubled by it while were heavily punished. If it wasnt for the gravel trap issue, i'd say they're good to go, but thats a big concern for me as 1 mistake for us (XRR) costs you a lot (pretty much an unrecoverable amount), 1-10 mistakes for them (FXR) costs them relatively nothing in comparison.
I suspect making it 24% will just make them uncompetitive to *race* with (they were almost moving roadblocks at 25%) but im not overly convinced its fair at 23% on the complete scale of things.

I'd be interested to hear T7R's (and other teams) thoughts on this, i know they're quite happy with the new found equality at 23%, but are they level considering all aspects?

Hmm, yesterdays race didn't really showed the fxr pace. Me had a bad driving day and Dave (who was clearly the fastest FXR had to quit in the end of his stint. He also joined after the race was started so his stats say basicly nothing as the the first lap with 40mins fu*** it up).

Anyway, from what I saw / think it's way closer now, with still about an advantage (8/10) on the fastest lap and over the whole stint in general. FXR should be able to go 26 - 27 laps per stint, so If i'm not wrong that the XRR has to make one pitstop more (every 6th pitstop, with a 4 lap difference), which is about 35 secs (with pit in and out).

The problem is now on how close we want to get the cars. In my opinion the XRR should be 5/10 faster than the FXR (both with fastest drivers... no point in balancing the cars with average FXR joe) as it's harder to drive. But I think 22% restriction would help the FXR too much, we gained about 1 sec from 23% (correct me please if thats wrong!), so another 1% would get us around 3/10 diff, which is a bit too close imho (see above).

We'll have to see tonight, and hope that we can do a proper FXR stint, as that is what we haven't seen yet

PS:
@About getting stuck in gravel: That can't be serious a point of balancing the cars, unless you PLAN to get stuck... That's simply a driver mistake (usually connected to some damage)... We could also bring up that the XRR needs less fuel per lap and therefore can do faster pitstops... At some point both cars have their advantages and disadvantages which are given by design. We can only get them close together for a stint (and thats hard enough to make it fair). Taking all the "ifs" and "could happen" is just useless

Getting stuck is not really on our minds. Yes, it's ****ed up that only XRR gets stuck. However, we cannot really do anything about it and a good racer shouldnt get stuck anyways. I take it you were running 23% restriction on FXR when you say it is closer now?

GT1

Hello gentlemen,
IMO, the time between 0kg and 20kg is not the only point to check.
XRR use less fuel and a car with added weight are its tyres which are hot faster than with no weight. In FZR, its already a challenge to keep this tyres good, with 20kg its more complicated :/
I think the question is not only about the lap time....
IMO, instead to have a added weight it should be better to have an engin restriction ! The tyres will be safe and the car will be still controlable.
But, IMO, a XRR is faster on a trouht line, isnt it? And a FZR is faster on corner? So, both car are already equilibrate. And when i see the two WR makes by bawbag in XRR and FZR, its really close...
Really, i dont undestand the point of this topic

Have a nice day.
That was worm, in live of his new job

Quote from Hoellsen :

Getting stuck is not really on our minds. Yes, it's ****ed up that only XRR gets stuck. However, we cannot really do anything about it and a good racer shouldnt get stuck anyways. I take it you were running 23% restriction on FXR when you say it is closer now?

yes, 23%

Quote from Worm :

GT1

Hello gentlemen,
IMO, the time between 0kg and 20kg is not the only point to check.
XRR use less fuel and a car with added weight are its tyres which are hot faster than with no weight. In FZR, its already a challenge to keep this tyres good, with 20kg its more complicated :/
I think the question is not only about the lap time....
IMO, instead to have a added weight it should be better to have an engin restriction ! The tyres will be safe and the car will be still controlable.
But, IMO, a XRR is faster on a trouht line, isnt it? And a FZR is faster on corner? So, both car are already equilibrate. And when i see the two WR makes by bawbag in XRR and FZR, its really close...
Really, i dont undestand the point of this topic

Have a nice day.
That was worm, in live of his new job

interesting WR for XRR.

Based on the info in this thread, we have decided to alter the GT1 FZR class and change it from carrying 25kg to 20kg.

Thank you all for your testing and sharing your results which is a great help to us getting a better insight in what to do to reach our goal.

Quote from N I K I :

interesting WR for XRR.

Quote from three_jump :

PS:
@About getting stuck in gravel: That can't be serious a point of balancing the cars, unless you PLAN to get stuck... That's simply a driver mistake (usually connected to some damage)... We could also bring up that the XRR needs less fuel per lap and therefore can do faster pitstops... At some point both cars have their advantages and disadvantages which are given by design. We can only get them close together for a stint (and thats hard enough to make it fair). Taking all the "ifs" and "could happen" is just useless

Quote from Hoellsen :

Getting stuck is not really on our minds. Yes, it's ****ed up that only XRR gets stuck. However, we cannot really do anything about it and a good racer shouldnt get stuck anyways. I take it you were running 23% restriction on FXR when you say it is closer now?

True, nobody intends to do anything but consistant perfect laps, but unfortunately theres about 5 people capable of doing that, for us mere mortals its a little different. If your involved in an accident which sticks you in there, one that isnt your own fault, wave bye-bye to 3min? nice.
I think maybe the +1 lap penalty should at least be wavered to something more suitable (+ 1-2min max) just so it cant be abused, but still applies the typical penalty (ave lap is 90-140sec in MoE) purely because if the cars are identical (or as good as) on speed alone, it doesnt consider this which plays a far bigger role than which is easier to drive.
At least in the GT1 class the FZR has a screwed clutch now, which in a fairly backwards logic counters the XRRs ability to get stuck in gravel, theres nothing like that in GT2 though.


I know what your saying, and in general i agree, i'd mentioned to tweak the other day its a bit f**ked up with the FZR and clutch damage, and the fact that its not really fair to make it x% faster than is fair on the *possibility* of it being a problem.
But as i say, thats my biggest concern at the moment, i'd have to tell my drivers not to be fully committed into some corners incase they make a mistake, while the FXR cars only need to worry about hitting something solid, we cant afford to run off at a good 3-4 locations, round Blackwood or Westhill a 2min loss is pretty devastating but maybe recoverable, 3min isnt, you'd struggle to get that back over 12hrs of clean stints assuming you were faster than the FXR too.

As for fuel usage, why shouldnt it be considered? It should as far as im concerned, if it costs you an extra 2sec to add an extra 20% each stint, its not your doing, its an attribute of the car. It should be considered when comparing what it needs to do a stint, although 2sec in a 1h12min stint isnt much, its still an additional cost thrown in there.


Niki, you do realise that races are more than 1 lap with a setup aimed to get as much out of the car in that 1 lap and go no further, right??

haha, i take it back now,
XRR Bawbag 2:38.080
FZR Bawbag 2:37.580
on that basis i agree with what NIKI is implying, 100kg all round

Can "Baggy" upload his set?^^ We are finally to stupid to build such a fast set.

To some your post a bit up (I'm a fan of short posts ), you are saying that the XRR is harder to drive compared to the FXR (which noone here will doubt) and therefore it should have an advantage.

So, to quote myself:

Quote :

... In my opinion the XRR should be 5/10 faster than the FXR (both with fastest drivers...

Wow... thats exactly the same I said...

So you basicly just wrote another epic post to agree with me
(Don't take me too serious )

WR in FZR is ok now

So 20kg is good.
Someone can explain me what niki mean when he said after my post:"interesting WR XRR". It was a joke? ^^

That was Worm, at home now

I'd love to say no screw you guys, because I asked a few people for sets just to test the ballast and even though i'm in the XRR for the MoE I was declined.

But you'll probarly find that you don't like the set, I didn't like it, never did, could never get it to do what I wanted reliably...

Enjoy.

Updated OP with race details:

• 15 min qualify.
  
• 2 hour race
  
• Standing start

Quote from three_jump :

To some your post a bit up (I'm a fan of short posts ), you are saying that the XRR is harder to drive compared to the FXR (which noone here will doubt) and therefore it should have an advantage.

So, to quote myself:

Wow... thats exactly the same I said...

So you basicly just wrote another epic post to agree with me
(Don't take me too serious )

I didnt think i agreed/disagreed (or mentioned it really) with that point at any stage

What we are agreeing on is that the speed difference/advantage should be there because its easier to make a mistake in the XRR than the FXR.

However, as i see it:
If a very small mistake is made in the XRR then it could cost 0.3-0.5, just like the FXR, however the likelyhood is far greater, which is why its slightly rewarded for that.
If an medium mistake is made, it could lose 1-5sec, just like the FXR, but again it has a higher likelyhood of happening to the harder to drive /'easier to make a mistake in' car.
But if the XRR comes off the track and gets bogged in gravel, its cost is anywhere between 3min and 5m30 (current lap +2:50ish) but if the FXR comes off it can stop for a cuppa and a ciggy break and get back on with things with no more than half the time lost.
The advantages dont cover the disadvantages equally do they, not at 3 - 5.5 min a graveltrap.

How often has your team been stuck in a gravel trap this season?

The point is, that this is all highly "what happens if"... you could get stuck every 10 laps or don't have any problems at all.

Nobody forces you to drive over the limit (which is when a crash happens, apart from the obvious unconcentrated driver mistake) with a car that is faster... Just drive slower.

Next someone comes up with a statistic that the FXR has a higher probability of getting disconnected from the server and wants hell what...

I see the problem problem that the FXR handles the gravel better due AWD, so what? In my opinion getting stuck in the gravel is the result of a mistake which is/was avoidable

Ok, on the GT2 thing, the FXR has allways been about a second slower than the XRR and FZR due to it simply being that little bit slower and more so in races because it has to use r3s on the front.

I'm all for seeing the FXR be competitive but considering now that i've saw the FXR do low 49s at the end of a stint which was about the same as Sidi in the XRR. But for the XRR to acheive these times they need to have burning hot tyres for the first 10 laps, the FXR however can run good tyres the full way, with them getting quite cold for the last few laps.

I done 48.8 or something in the FXR so it is very fast ATM, perhaps to fast, but although the XRR might have the final legs when it comes to those last few tenths, the FXR IMO is fast in this series than it ever has been.

By this post i'm not complaining and hopiping for it to be slowed down, as it will be nice to see differn't cars in the mix for the lead, just pointing out that i'd be extremely happy if I was in the GT2 FXR with the current balancing attributes.

Have to agree with Ray based on what I saw.

Gonna be much much easier for the FXR boys to compete on a lap-by-lap basis with the XRRs now.