Well, thats no real argument. The feeling takes a while. If I play a lot of LFS, rFactor feels strange. But it is the sameway around. If I play a lot rFactor, LFS feels more like flying over the street. There are a lot of things that make LFS feel more like a computer game to me. And I can name them. Less feelable bumps and rev pointer directly and lagfree connected to throttle e.g.

So unless you name things that cause that feeling thats no argument. Some people even say Need for Speed Underground feels more realistic than LFS or rFactor

Quote from RIP2004 :

So unless you name things that cause that feeling thats no argument. Some people even say Need for Speed Underground feels more realistic than LFS or rFactor

And those people we call Tools

Much as LFS can only improve and get more 'Realistic' it will never get anywhere near to Real Life. Physics is an amazingly complicated interplay of dynamic forces. Gravity, temperature, air, water, inertia, weight, G-force, mass and the personel feeling that one gets when sitting on a vehicle, that famous connection that you get with the tarmac. You will never get that feeling across a computer screen, when your hanging out the tail of a lotus elise and you know, insinctivly, whether to take of the power or gently put it on. LFS can only ever be a very good approximation, probably the best one there is out there, but untill they develop full immersion implants or whatever that can simulate the physical side of things on your actual body it can never be truly called realistic. It ain't never gunna happen through a steering wheel attached to a desktop.

I am sure the next Physics update will do nothing but improve the 'feel' of LFS and make it a much better simulator of real world racing. But it will never replace the feeling looning about in my Transit, semi high, semi long, twin axle, 2 litre petrol (Rear wheel drive commercial van with four wheels on one rear axle for those not around these parts). When that bitch was empty you could get that arse hanging along way out. All at legal speeds. The cowley road roundabout has never been so much fun.

I'm waiting for headsets that can directly access the equilibrium sense in your ear to make the feeling of this game so realistisc like the real thing! *g*

We all are just born too early...

Thats true. Thats why I don't like force feedback generally. The Feedback in a real car is WAY more and very different. The feedback from the wheel in all games I played now is a joke compared to the real thing
But apart from feedback you may simulate the behaviour of the car as realistic as possible. It will be always harder to drive a simulated car, than driving it for real in terms of control, because of the lack of feedback. But then you have the advantage of not fighting against g-forces This helps perhabs a bit to concentrate on the driving itself ...

Some thoughts of me about LFS and rFactor in terms of simulation. Perhabs a bit harsh, but as I write I like LFS for a lot of things and I think it has the biggest theoretical potential, but I am not sure if it can be achieved in 100 years with just one programmer ...

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=240639&page=6 Post 138 and a few below ...

I'm starting to get afraid of how these threads always turn someway into debate whether LFS is better/worse than something else...

As to the post 138 at RSC, it all has been discussed so many times before...

I agree, LFS has all those faults that the post lists. But still it is the only simulator where I feel that I am driving a car instead of controlling some bounding box with 2d-table-calculated "physics". Of course that is, if you discard some cars, but mostly it is good.

LFS is a game. It is a very good game. It is actually one of the very few games i have bought the last 4 years.

You turn the wheel (and/or press some buttons), then a program is doing some calculations and you see the result of your wheel turning (and/or button mashing) presented as a 2D projection of a theoretical 3D scene (plus some screeches and whining and the occasional feedback from the appropriate wheel).

Actually driving a car is something completely different.

Sure, what you see on your tft, after you step on the "gas pedal" and turn "the wheel", reminds you of what you do when in your (real) car and how the car reacts.
But...

Even if you manage to create a physicaly perfect mathematical formula that gives you the state, position and velocity of each component of the car taking into account every single parameter that exists, you still can't even begin to consider it "realistic".

The main reason is that the car is real. It is moving. Even if you "feel" the Gs (don't put apostrophe there. "G's" is wrong) using one of those in-ear electromechanical devices that mess with your cochlea, while playing LFS, it is still not even approaching the real thing.

Debating whether LFS is realistic or not is useless. Stop wasting precious time and go do some laps in a go-kart (a real go-kart. not the MRT).

That said, great GREAT work with LFS! (can you guys port it to pocketpc devices? i want to be able to play on my qtek9100 rofl! 320x240x16 is enough, no?) Also, has anyone got any tweaks to make the F08 perform like an F1 car?

Quote from george_tsiros :

(can you guys port it to pocketpc devices? i want to be able to play on my qtek9100 rofl! 320x240x16 is enough, no?)

ps. Can't remember who did the second pic (as I did the first) but credits for him...

Quote from george_tsiros :

Even if you "feel" the Gs (don't put apostrophe there. "G's" is wrong)

Actually I think 'Gees' is the correct grammatical usage and if so be the case then G's might be also correct as it is a shortening. But then with any English your way could be equally correct depending on your school of thought. Just wanted an arguement, but I seem to be argueing myself. 'Tis normally the case.

Quote from george_tsiros :

Debating whether LFS is realistic or not is useless. Stop wasting precious time and go do some laps in a go-kart (a real go-kart. not the MRT).

Why is it useless? One of the reasons I enjoy motorsport (participating, not spectating) is an appreciation / understanding of the physics involved, and how my actions fit in with those constraints. Understanding where LFS gets it wrong is of interest to me, much the same way understanding how the poor head design of my bike affects it's running is, etc. Knowing where LFS is wrong would seem to be part of the task of fixing it. No doubt Scawen understands the consensus opinion by now, but if none of these threads ever appeared, one wonders if he'd have as much reason to be looking at the physics, or would improve them as easily.

I think everyone has missed one very large point, these are not standard road cars. A lot could be down to the suspension/diffs that are being used which while they may be faster when driven correctly are less stable. No real road based racing cars are usually setup to be this unstable, the fastest way to set a RWD car is still towards a slight understeer.

how real is LFS?

well to be honest, i'd have to say its not that real.. but its not the games fault, theres a huge difference from playing a game, from actually going outside and taking a drive.. its like those jetski games and skiing and snowboarding and skateboarding games.. the 'physics' of the game may be real and if done in life would work out the same way, but its totally different from actually going outside and doing it, but to be honest i think LFS has a far way to go before it can be considered 'real'

the thing with jet ski / snowboard / other games, is that you can't accurately simulate them because a huge part of the discipline is body movement. The drivers body movement really has no effect in a car, it's all about the movement of the controls, so it can be much more easily simulated...

but its still the same effect, you cant really understand what hte car is doing without feeling it.. its like riding a bike in life, and then riding a bike on some random game.. it just wont be hte same no matter what

I disagree... you don't feel exactly the same things, but I don't find it any more difficult to understand what the car is doing. The effects may never be the same, but they never are between different cars anyway.

I agree with XCNuse.

It's the entire act, not just the wheel-turning and the pedal-pushing.