you have to understand that is simply you interpretation of the 2 words, they are such commonly used words that they do not share any real specific definition, well not as specific as you have mentioned.
i understand some may use the word twin, maybe over in america they may use it, but i have never spoken to a drift driver or spectator that has called a battle a "twin" here in Australia, and in Japan they call them battles, so it might simply come down to the fact that i dont watch American drift as to why i rarely hear the word twin being used.
Quite impressed by the way you have taken this thread by the scruff of the neck and would like to ask you something (rather than see you bogged down in linguistic pedanticism... Why these threads always go that way is beyond me...)
What has always interested me most about the 'battles' is the degree of strategy involved (and the limited time in which drivers have to make snap decisions about that strategy). Do you have any links to articles in which drivers describe their strategy, or just general guides to that particular element of the competition?
While reading some of the comments i stumbled across the term twin and parts of the debate about it. I just wanted to say that for me as an outsider (since my knowledge regarding this matter is pretty much limited) this term sort of implies some kind of cooperation or choreographed (show) battle where there is no winner in the end. I guess it may be the actual and correct term but it just confuses me a little.
So my question would be: Does something like this (described above) exists and if so then how do you call it when a "normal" battle is called a twin?
your actually very close to the mark there, in LFS u see a lot of people use the twin as a term for 2 cars drifting side by side for a bit of fun, in competition it is usually what is called a battle as they are battling each other, one is trying to defeat the other.
how ever there are cases of what we call team drift where teams are meant to keep proximity and duplicate what the person in front as doing as closely as possible, in most cases this is a with 3+ cars, but there are some comps where its just 2 cars drifting together, i have some great footage of this on a dvd i have, some really close drifting. this is probably what ud most closely relate to "twin" drift as they are 2 cars together duplicating each other.
hey, not sure about articles, i mostly read either forums or talk to the people themselves and get a general idea, the sport is still in most cases no where near as strategic as top level racing, but you can see strategy evolving in the sport. often its just people going out and trying to drift as good as possible, but now u can see a few tactics coming in.
firstly leading, you ideally want to either create some distance or force them to drift at a speed they dont want to. as im sure u understand, people like to drift at different speeds, if you are a faster drifter and have more grip it can be hard trying to hold the oversteer at a lower speed as the lower speed means less force, meaning the tyres will start to gain traction again.
so if you are a slower drifter you really need to keep a good line, make sure they cannot overtake as with the extra speed they are carrying they will be able to overtake fairly easy. holding the line will also mean if they try to overtake they will be forced to take an "off-line", and as im sure u can imagine, its not easy to overtake a car sideways taking up a lot of the track, on an off line which is dirtier and slower, all while having to maintain oversteer and not straighten up. this can often lead to mistakes such as contact, going off track, spinning, straightening up, all which will often lose them the battle usually.
now if they dont try to overtake and they just sit behind you, forcing them to carry lower speeds through the corner can cause them just as many issues, as i said the lower speeds may cause the tyres to gain traction and cause the car to straighten up, also things like having to jam on the foot brake, which unbalances the car and pulls the rear around, once again either causing the car to straighten up or even spin around.
now another tactic that can be used is slower entries, now this isnt favorable from a judging perspective, but when the following car is on the back, they have to follow ur speed, a slow entry will mean that the follower will have to go in the same speed, but due to the lower speed entry, it means you can come through and out of the corner fast (aka slow in, fast out) and sometimes pull some distance on the follower.
quite simply if you have a decently fast car, if you follow a fast line you should either be able to pull away, or make the following car have to sacrafice some angle to keep with you, both ways benefiting you.
now, following, you obviously dont have as much control of the battle from back here as far as strategies, but at the same time your not expected to, which works in ur favour in a way. basically you want to keep as close to the leader as possible, replicate him as much as possible, line, speed, angle etc.
if you can do this closely you usually dont have to worry about much, but unfortunately this isnt anywhere as easy as it sounds, cars are all setup differently, so making 2 cars drift side by side is not easy, especially in battle conditions.
for an almost guaranteed win you want to go for the overtake, now this can be easier in some senses to racing, but harder in others, holding a consistent line is harder when uve gotta do it sideways, so often the lead car will go off line, unfortunately because its 50+ degrees, it takes up more of the track, then fitting your car doing similar angle through less track is where it becomes difficult.
it might be worth noting here, that you cannot overtake on the straights, or when ur car is not under drift, so overtaking under braking after a big straight is not legal. but a few things you can do, taking a different line out of the corner before, come out of the corner before, take a line which sets you up to come into the next corner more aggressively, this may mean you have to sacrifice some speed, and then in turn some angle to make up for it, but as long as you dont straighten up, it will pay off if you overtake correctly. coming in at a sharper line will mean u can come into the corner harder and fast and more aggressively, this is a risk because you really need to hope they have left a bit of a window up the inside for you to go through.
now, you can also overtake on the transition between corners, really the only thing u need to do here is flow with their angle, line, and timing, you want to be able to come past them side by side, if your at different angles your going to have less room and more likely to hit. then once your through and coming into the next corner, really you want to just hit the line, fark the speed, if you dont get the line and u come out to wide on the next corner they might just come back up inside and take it off ya. so hitting that line, even if it means losing a lot of speed, will mean they probably wont be able to overtake you, even tho they are carrying in more speed as they will probably aim for the same line, and now that ur sitting on that line, they arent going past you, in fact itll probably mean they have to slow down to not hit you, which may screw with their angle.
saying that, if it fails, you still usually got in there and got the proximity up which will score u some points, as long as u dont **** it up and get too close and have to straighten up or brake hard etc.
eh, theres a lot of small little tactics that can be used, they are just a few general ones ive thought about.
There may not be any real specific definition on both of the terms in a official sense, although powersliding is a taught technique among race schools, not just in high performance driving but also used in defensive driving as well. The one i had attended was a three day course at skip barbers in the intermediate level, but in the 21 hour course one of the techniques taught is powersliding.This was recognised since the difficulty of overcoming understeer on a composite corner consisting of a Carosel into a instantaneous hairpin posed some difficulty getting though at an ideal speed. The challenge here was to gain enough momentum on turn-in during heavy braking, which most drivers suffered understeer after the long line of heavy braking due to the high speed corner exit into the sharp entry. What the instructers had educated us to effectivly exit out of the carosel and enter the corner was to modulate the throttle to induce a small amount of wheel spin and powerslide to force the car to slightly to beyond the ideal grip angle to give the right amount of momentum then instantly counter steer and regain traction and successfully exit the corner following an model line.
Remember those references was not from a single country but from across the globe, not just limited to the US. The basis which forms your opinion is influenced from the country you are from and not on a world-wide scale. I'm familar with the japanese using the word battle but i also know that they tend to use the word Tsuiso which literal tranlation means "Twin" or "Twin rush" in which some cases i see it being mentioned as Tsuiso battle on occasion.
Change the word drift to race and delete the bable about the judges and you have quite an accurate description of race tactics. Only thing that's missing is pit strategy.
I don't see how you can evolve the tactics more.
yeh, ive covered this quite a few times, but i dont see the relevance to my point. people call it different things, some call it one term, some call it the other. theres no real official, in concrete, definition of the 2 going into the specifics as much as you are.
they were copy and pastes from an american set of rules and regulations, it was used on sites like D1 NZ as they gained the D1 license after the US.
i dont really see this argument going anywhere to be honest.
no, but racing you dont have as much to sacrafice for overtaking or tactics, when you do similar tactics in drifting, they have to be done differently as they have to stick to a criteria to score points.
racing is based on whos in front by the end, drifting is based on how it's done. or put differently, racing is about the final result, drifting is about how they got there.
so quick review, tactics such as slow entries, this isnt affective with racing, racing they would simply overtake under braking, as this isnt allowed in drift its a lot different. causing them to go slower by blocking the line to force an error from them such as straightening up or spinning due to unbalancing the car under drift which will cause them to lose points from judging, once again, in some ways this can relate to race, but the slower speed will simply mean they have to go slow, its not a tactic used to make them lose judging points like in drift. and in reality when ur talking about cars with such different speeds, in racing the faster car is going to eventually pass and the slower car, drift there is a very real chance of keeping them behind you if you follow these tactics, as well as being able to use the lower speed as an advantage to reduce the points of the follower.
flowing with the angle and line to overtake on transitions, not even relevant with race. yes they overtake between corners, but they do not have to contend with varying angle of drift.
yes, but its not a tactic that can be used to the advantage of the slower drifter, the tactic isnt just about stopping an overtake, its about making them drive slower, which in turn can force straightening up etc which reduces their points.
and im not here to make similarities between drifting and racing, although i think its worth clearing a few obvious things up so it doesnt get confusing, drifting is both a technique and sport, grip is a technique, racing is a sport, grip and drift can both be used for racing, im not saying one is faster than the other as they are simply just different techniques which both have advantages and disadvantages and both suit different applications and preferences, but they can both be used to race. drifting as a sport vs racing as a sport, well they are completely different, one is based around form, one is based around function, this makes comparing the 2 very hard in that sense, my argument in this thread is that both require large amounts of sport and should be respected in similar ways.
Read between the lines, i don't see why you don't see the relevance in the point. It being taught throughout the years in racing schools gives creditential and meaning. powerover as a drift technique however, is never mentioned in racing schools as a performance technique and that is im certain the relevance you are searching for.
And?........ Paste or not, i'll say it again, "Those sources, by governing that in their official rules and regulations accepted the fact that "Twin" is a welcomed and commonly used term in the world of drifting as these references are stated across from different parts of the globe."
once again, they have no official specific meaning, power over just means oversteer induced with power, its not govern to one specific technique or purpose, would you not say that sounds pretty similar to ur description of powersliding?
if u wanna me padantic about it, it says tsuiso, not twin, twin was just a translation made by the yanks. as i said, i dont watch US drift, hence i dont hear the term. if they want to use it over there great, im wrong, but dont expect me to be overly worried about what the US do, their influence on the sport goes only as far as $$.
Similar but not exact, different techniques used in different contexts, one in drift, one in race.
That point where you made it as a fabricated translation by the US as twin, i've some study on the Japanese Romanji term "Tsuiso" (or "Tsuiso hyouryuu" it's also known as by japanese) using a few translating services and they show it's meaning as "Twin rush" or "Chasing leader".
i never said it was a fabricated translation, i said it was a term used by americans, and since i dont watch america drift, i dont hear it. pretty simple i thought.
You should visit the Forza Motorsport 2 Forum and check out the drifting board they have there.
People with not much of a clue about drifting having discussions about it, starting drift teams... and even worse, drift schools. You could say it's teenagers who are teaching 12 year olds. And both have no clue what they are talking about (some might actually have, but it's the minority).
