Hehehe, nice one Vain

Quote from Vain :

Sorry, but I can't stop grinning when I think of this thread and this, so I thought I'd share the humour.

Vain

Thx for that!

However, I also think there's a side to this conversation that's not so funny. Just because supposedly everybody knows that tristan is usually condescending and has a habit of implying other people's stupidity on an "if..., then..."-basis doesn't make it right and is hugely detrimental to any intelligent conversation. I think nisskid has done a relatively good job of staying calm and keeping his arguments relatively offence-free, whereas tristan has done what he usually does: being overly provocative and calling other peoples arguments and view-points "rubbish" or "twaddle" on first reply. Yet, SamH (yes, a moderator on this forum) jumps in and implies nisskid was deliberately trying not to take on the "inferences in Tristan's posts" and later even calling nisskid arrogant. However, reading nisskid's first two posts again and tristan's reaction to them, it seems quite clear to me, that he (also) either did not take on the inferences in nisskid's posts or deliberately chose not to do so. I guess I don't need to elaborate on the arrogance-part. Yet, I didn't see any moderator criticizing him for it.

To make this clear: I'm not saying either party in this discussion is right or wrong, I don't think there is a right or wrong, I'm just talking about the debate culture, or whatever that would be called in english.

Quote from tristancliffe :

They were fine in a road car, because they don't generate much force anyway. But as soon as your RACE, which is what we're talking about, isn't it, then you need to have racing bucket seats and 4 point harnesses minimum - no standard seats. Sorry, I don't like the word stock, as it makes me think of gravy.

um no, the seats simply do not hold u in place well, you will move around and u will need to use different parts of your body to hold you up, you will not be kept still and it will affect ur ability to control the car.

Quote from tristancliffe :

No, I didn't. You are still slowing down. the heavier cars slow down over a longer period than the lighter cars, so the change of momentum isn't going to be vastly different really. Besides, if your car needs bigger brakes you fit bigger brakes. Takes a minute to work it out really. Very simple equations. Hell, most of the time you don't even need to use equations, you just phone up a supplier and the new bits arrive the next day.

My brakes aren't out in the wind - they are enclosed in wheels, just like on any car with outboard brakes. What point were you making about brakes anyway? When was the last time you saw a race car (either a road conversion or a purebred race car) suffer from brakes overheating? I can't remember the last time, but it would have been through mistreatment rather than insufficient thermal capacity anyway - not changing the fluid, or buying cheap pads etc.

exactly, heavier cars take longer to slow down, this means longer on the brakes, meaning they are engaged longer, meaning more heat build up. not to mention the brakes need to apply more force to slow the car down, so as i mentioned, brakes are engaged longer and harder, meaning a lot of heat.

bigger brakes arnt always an option, mostly due to racing regulations, but also wheel limitations etc due to the size of the disks etc.

youve never heard of race cars with overheating brakes? um, have you been living in a rock for the last, oh i dunno, since the existence of motorsport? brakes are one of the main issues race cars deal with, if u want specific proof, well i was only reading a article about the R32 GTR in Australia a day or 2 ago, and one of the major issues they were facing was overheating brakes. if you want i can link you to the article, but i have to say i feel weird about putting the spot light on one specific team dealing with this issue, when its an issue that has to be dealt with every day by most teams.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Of course the professional racers don't use sims to improve themselves. What a daft suggestion. We were talking about learning a lot of the basics of real life racing, and I state that LFS can get you very quickly to within a couple of seconds of the pace. In club racing, the newbies who DON'T give themselves additional track time in a simulator are going to be giving themselves a disadvantage. They won't be able to try hundreds of things, from different cornering techniques to oversteer correction, via setup changes all in a day.

if you can transfer the skills learnt from LFS at a basic level so easily, then why cant you at a higher level?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Edit: Try this. Two guys, around 20 years old. They want to go racing, but have only driven hatchbacks. they cobble up the money for a racing car (what type doesn't matter), and decide to share it. They both have the same experiences, and both know how to drive a car to a very similar standard. They both have similar levels of mechanical knowledge (which is probably very little).

Allow, for a moment, to pretend that they both race in the same race for their first time. One still hasn't driven anything on a track prior to practice, but the other one decided a few weeks ago to get into sim racing. He now knows how to setup a car basically. He now knows how to correct slides and how NOT to provoke them in the first place. He knows what cold tyres will feel like, and what warm tyres feel like. He knows how to race in a group of cars. He knows where to look. He knows when to late apex a corner, and when an early turn in might be an advantage. He knows that trail braking is tricky, but worth it. He knows how to overtake. He knows, in short, every single skill a racing driver needs to some degree apart from, in LFSs case, brake temperature, and more generally personal fitness.

Which one will do better in the race?

depends on their personalities, if the guy that played LFS was like a few of the people on here and thought he'd be an awesome driver straight off he'd probably find himself in a sand trap on the first corner.

if they are like what most people i see and talk with are like, they will get a feel for the track before they focus on going for low lap times, and if they get confident and comfortable enough, then who knows, he may be a little bit faster he may not, i dont know, i personally think the guy that has played LFS might be slightly faster, depends how he uses what he has learnt on LFS and whether he is able to even use it. this doesnt go against my argument, i have never doubted the possibility of slight advantages gain, i was just talking about the people who think they will be competitive as soon as they get in the car as they were competitive in LFS.

but id put this to you, same situation, except the driver who hadnt played LFS had already had a track day, who do you think would win?

Quote from Linsen :

Thx for that!

However, I also think there's a side to this conversation that's not so funny. Just because supposedly everybody knows that tristan is usually condescending and has a habit of implying other people's stupidity on an "if..., then..."-basis doesn't make it right and is hugely detrimental to any intelligent conversation. I think nisskid has done a relatively good job of staying calm and keeping his arguments relatively offence-free, whereas tristan has done what he usually does: being overly provocative and calling other peoples arguments and view-points "rubbish" or "twaddle" on first reply. Yet, SamH (yes, a moderator on this forum) jumps in and implies nisskid was deliberately trying not to take on the "inferences in Tristan's posts" and later even calling nisskid arrogant. However, reading nisskid's first two posts again and tristan's reaction to them, it seems quite clear to me, that he (also) either did not take on the inferences in nisskid's posts or deliberately chose not to do so. I guess I don't need to elaborate on the arrogance-part. Yet, I didn't see any moderator criticizing him for it.

To make this clear: I'm not saying either party in this discussion is right or wrong, I don't think there is a right or wrong, I'm just talking about the debate culture, or whatever that would be called in english.

unfortunately or fortunately (im still undecided haha) im a very argumentative person, but at the same time ive had enough arguments to know that as soon as you stoop to petty insults you lose any credibility you may have built up, thats why i have tried to keep them out, unfortunately its hard to have an argument like this without getting a bit frustrated, so sometimes i can let my guard down.

One last time as i think your still not understanding what im saying to you, (maybe your a little simple?)
You do not drive in F3 and as such do not drive a F3 car, Formula 3 is a race series not the name of the chassis.

Now if i had a Fw07 williams from the 1980's and i raced in a club event that event is not called F1 there in i would not be called an f1 driver therefore you are not an F3 driver.

Maybe you should read my posts next time instead of highlighting them to copy/paste then make silly remarks. Couple that with some learning about cars and mechanics and you'll be well away. You might even be able to stretch to a proper job.

Quote from nisskid :

um no, the seats simply do not hold u in place well, you will move around and u will need to use different parts of your body to hold you up, you will not be kept still and it will affect ur ability to control the car.

Um, yes. Road car seats are fine for the application. If you are racing then, as I have stated several times, you need (no: MUST HAVE) racing seats.

Quote from nisskid :

exactly, heavier cars take longer to slow down, this means longer on the brakes, meaning they are engaged longer, meaning more heat build up. not to mention the brakes need to apply more force to slow the car down, so as i mentioned, brakes are engaged longer and harder, meaning a lot of heat.

Lighter cars slow down harder over a shorter period, whereas heavier cars slow down slowly over a longer period (generally). The exchange of energy isn't vastly different. Seen the brakes on a modern single seater? Seen the brakes on a modern small GTR? Not vastly different really, and not that much bigger. Note we are, I think, still talking about relative beginner cars, so I'm not going to compare FFord with LeMans brakes.

Quote from nisskid :

bigger brakes arnt always an option, mostly due to racing regulations, but also wheel limitations etc due to the size of the disks etc.

But they will be satisfactory for the job if regulated by the series. Brakes have been sorted on racing cars in 99.99999% of cases since about 1975. There hasn't been much progress with them, and the hasn't been a change of physics since then either.

Quote from nisskid :

youve never heard of race cars with overheating brakes? um, have you been living in a rock for the last, oh i dunno, since the existence of motorsport? brakes are one of the main issues race cars deal with, if u want specific proof, well i was only reading a article about the R32 GTR in Australia a day or 2 ago, and one of the major issues they were facing was overheating brakes. if you want i can link you to the article, but i have to say i feel weird about putting the spot light on one specific team dealing with this issue, when its an issue that has to be dealt with every day by most teams.

Now you've moved the goalposts a bit. An R32 (is that a Skyline?) GTR isn't exactly the sort of thing people run in their first few car races, and surely that level of experience is what we're talking about? F1 has lots of brake issues, but their factor of safety is about 1.01. Road cars and pretty much any car you'll see at any given weekend has a factor of safety in the brakes of about 2, if not more. Pad fade when bedding in is pretty much the only that that'll catch you out if you are replacing brake fluid at sensible regimes.

Quote from nisskid :

if you can transfer the skills learnt from LFS at a basic level so easily, then why cant you at a higher level?

Are you actually asking that question? Because at a higher level they are... err... at a higher level. They've got more experience, they've had more track time, they've probably been racing since they were 10. That's why. Don't forget we are talking about people going from LFS (or indeed any sim really) to a real racing environment.

Quote from nisskid :

depends on their personalities, if the guy that played LFS was like a few of the people on here and thought he'd be an awesome driver straight off he'd probably find himself in a sand trap on the first corner.

They are both the same people to all intents and purposes. Maybe I personified them too much, but forget about that. Would Mr Anon do better in his first race with racing experience or without? Why didn't I, with my sim racing experience and apparent attitude, spin off in my first race in to a gravel trap?

Quote from nisskid :

if they are like what most people i see and talk with are like, they will get a feel for the track before they focus on going for low lap times, and if they get confident and comfortable enough, then who knows, he may be a little bit faster he may not, i dont know, i personally think the guy that has played LFS might be slightly faster, depends how he uses what he has learnt on LFS and whether he is able to even use it. this doesnt go against my argument, i have never doubted the possibility of slight advantages gain, i was just talking about the people who think they will be competitive as soon as they get in the car as they were competitive in LFS.

How is that different? I've never driven Brands Hatch in LFS, and nor have I driven an F3 car in LFS, but both were made easier because of LFS. Of course you take it easy for the first few laps, just like you would at a new track in LFS. That part is no different.

Quote from nisskid :

but id put this to you, same situation, except the driver who hadnt played LFS had already had a track day, who do you think would win?

The LFSer - he's been in a race environment, understands passing (outlawed in most trackdays except in certain places or on certain sides), understands pacing himself a bit, understands racing... A trackday is fun, and teaches you a bit, but is VERY VERY different to a race environment. Assuming of course that the trackday was at a different track and in his road car not the race car.

Quote from andybarsblade :

One last time as i think your still not understanding what im saying to you, (maybe your a little simple?)
You do not drive in F3 and as such do not drive a F3 car, Formula 3 is a race series not the name of the chassis.

Do you know what 883 means? The Three means Formula Three. It was build to F3 regulations. It is an F3 car. It raced in F3. How can it not be an F3 car? Your car is still a Mitsubishi, even though it's no longer in the factory, isn't it? Or does it change from Mitsubishi to 'generic car' after 6 months?

Quote from andybarsblade :

Now if i had a Fw07 williams from the 1980's and i raced in a club event that event is not called F1 there in i would not be called an f1 driver there for you are not an F3 driver.

You would be driving an F1 car. In what way would it not be an F1 car. Is the F2007 an F1 car? Is the F2008 not an F1 car when it's in a truck? Make sense, please.

Quote from andybarsblade :

Maybe you should read my posts next time instead of highlighting them to copy/paste then make silly remarks. Couple that with some learning about cars and mechanics and you'll be well away. You might even be able to stretch to a proper job.

I haven't copied and pasted anything. The quoting is all done automatically. And do try not to tell someone not to make silly remarks if you then go and make on in the same paragraph.

Ha, look at you, telling me about learning about cars and mechanics. Ha ha ha ha. I am thinking of changing jobs actually. I love what I do, but I think I could love motorsport preparation more, and be quite good at it. Most of the motorsport 'experts' we talk to don't really understand that much.

I love this topic, and it's because I would really like there to be some transfer of skills between real life and LFS. So I'm a bit biased as well.

Quote from SamH :

Testimony! It's here in this thread.

Here's my testimony: real life -> LFS

When I first got my G25, I found out I completely sucked at controlling oversteer in cars like the XRG/XRT, so back I went to driving around in the XFG (which I don't have any problem with.) After the winter I decided to give the XRG/XRT another try and BAM instant improvement. Drifting around slowly through snow in real life in a RWD helped my LFS. In real life, the G forces help you read the car, and by the time winter was over, the steering and gas pedal motions were almost muscle memory to the point that I didn't need (needed less) the G forces to guide me. True story.

...and once again Tristan turns a perfectly good tread into a thickheaded arrogant 5 page useless blant.

Happy pi day all!

Quote from lococost :

...and once again Tristan turns a perfectly good tread into a thickheaded arrogant 5 page useless blant.

Happy pi day all!

LOL! You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. I'm really surprised more people can't see the massive transfer of skills. Maybe it's because they haven't actually raced anything. Maybe it's because they aren't very good if they have. Or maybe they're all supremely talented and learnt nothing in LFS, and were beating WRs from day one (in both LFS and real life).

Isn't it funny that backing down and rolling over, and agreeing to disagree and being all nice and cosy and wet gets you more respect than discussing what you believe with people. No wonder the world is full of Andys.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Do you know what 883 means? The Three means Formula Three. It was build to F3 regulations. It is an F3 car. It raced in F3. How can it not be an F3 car? Your car is still a Mitsubishi, even though it's no longer in the factory, isn't it? Or does it change from Mitsubishi to 'generic car' after 6 months?

No but then your car is not made by formula 3 its made for formula 3 by raynard i guess?

Now my mitsubishi was made by them for the WRC so that does not make it a wrc car its a mitsubishi evo v that was used for the wrc back in 1998.

Right... what odd logic you have. Everyone - the computer you are using is not a computer, because it wasn't made by Computer.

what computer do you have ....... errrr computer?

Q.what car do you drive?

A.F3

Q. Yeah but what chassis

A. F3

I'm not even going to grace you with a reply. Apart from this one.

Wait a minute tristan im not saying that playing lfs does'nt prepare you for real life racing.

Its this that i dont agree with you about

Quote from tristancliffe :

Twaddle. If you are quick in LFS then you will be quite quick (car permitting) in real life

Because it isnt that simple?

Ed: what field do you work in now?

Why isn't it? Why will you suddenly lose all driving ability when you sit in a real car, bearing in mind the basic skills are identical?

I think we've already gone over about 10 times in this thread why.

Quote from tristancliffe :

LOL! You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. I'm really surprised more people can't see the massive transfer of skills. Maybe it's because they haven't actually raced anything. Maybe it's because they aren't very good if they have. Or maybe they're all supremely talented and learnt nothing in LFS, and were beating WRs from day one (in both LFS and real life).

Isn't it funny that backing down and rolling over, and agreeing to disagree and being all nice and cosy and wet gets you more respect than discussing what you believe with people. No wonder the world is full of Andys.

Agreed totally that everybody has a right to express their own opinion. But it takes maturity to be able to agree to disagree. Having these discussions back and forth doesn't make you more of a man, Tristan, I think this is what you believe they do though.
What it does do is lower the standards of this forum. The guy posing the question wanted to know how LFS compares to real life. You have an opinion, others have theirs. Leave it at that and this can actually be worth a read.

I'll leave it at this now, so any useless rant at what l wrote will be left unanswered.

Gah!, How can you two argue for so long...

End of thread, please cut here:

-----------------------------8<-----------------------------
.

Ok bring back your example of the 2 drivers who decide to go racing. But this time make it fair instead of saying they have both done the same amount of driving but driver 2 has played lfs for countless hours.

Say driver #1 has a sporty little hatch back that he has done a couple of trackdays in and has done loads of miles in.

But driver #2 has never once driven a real car and has only played on lfs at home for the same miles/time.

Who is going to win/be the better driver?

Quote from mcgas001 :

Gah!, How can you two argue for so long...

When you've been in a relationship you'll understand

edit: that sounds gay......

Quote from andybarsblade :

Ok bring back your example of the 2 drivers who decide to go racing. But this time make it fair instead of saying they have both done the same amount of driving but driver 2 has played lfs for countless hours.

Say driver #1 has a sporty little hatch back that he has done a couple of trackdays in and has done loads of miles in.

But driver #2 has never once driven a real car and has only played on lfs at home for the same miles/time.

Who is going to win/be the better driver?

Hardly fair, but probably the real life driver. LFS can't teach you how a gear change works (no feel in clutches or gear levers), but a road car can. But I don't see giving one a huge advantage of driving in real life is at all fair. I was driving computer games when I was tiny, and whilst I knew from the age of about 9 what a late apex meant I didn't know how to slip a clutch in real life (which is the same in road cars and race cars, just with taller gearing and less torque).

To the others - if this thread annoys you, or you can't understand it, then don't come here. You don't have to read the thread. Look at about post 3 - I answered my question there. I just disagreed with whatshisface (no offence intended) about transferrable skills, and so a discussion has built out of it. Some people seem to think it's a slanging match, but I think it's remained vastly more civil than, say, a pub argument. Except for Andy, who (in my opinion) has lowered to tone of the thread.

There is room for all of us here. Some of you like off-topic threads about what you're eating. Some of us only come here to ask for help with LFS. Others come here to assist. I come here for all of that, and to discuss real life racing related stuff too. I'm sure you can find a thread where everyone agrees with everyone one and moves on the second the original post has been answered. Maybe get rid of all forums and replace them with FAQs if you'd prefer?

Quote from andybarsblade :

When you've been in a relationship you'll understand

edit: that sounds gay......

ROFL

I agree its not really fair because i know thats not what you where trying to say. Your not saying that a sim is a direct replacement for real life experience but is an aid to prepare you for it.

And it was not my intention to lower the tone in this thread my silly post's have only been reactions to yours.

Please dont take it to serious

My silly posts have only been reactions to yours though. Please don't take it so seriously.