no, i dont have any idea of what im talking about, dont listen to me, im sure you know a lot more, after all you play LFS so you should know everything there is to know.
and yes im getting imature, but give me a break ive had a long day, one involving sitting in 40+degree heat for about 5 hours, 2x1 hour drives, testing positive for weed at a cop RBT, and getting my car defected.
Interesting confirms my thoughts somewhat. Fuel load was the obvious one to me, but tyre temps I didn't really expect to change in ratio back/front too much which caught me out. But I guess fuel load will effect the tyre heat profile during a race as the wieght front/rear will change, then as the tyre heat profile changes the handling worsens which in turn increases the effect
Yeah. If your car is ever so slightly oversteer biased, then each time you get on the power and get 1% too much yaw, you get a little bit more heat, which makes the car more likely to get too much yaw which makes.... and so on. So the car becomes more and more oversteer biased due to excessive rear tyre temperatures. The skill (and I certainly haven't honed it) is to detect that imbalance early and correct it, usually with the ARBs, so that the car can remain balanced.
If you let it get too advanced, then the ARBs won't be sufficient to change the balance enough, and you'll be stuck with a slow car that wants to melt it's rear tyres. This is not good. It's also expensive
I'm testing on Thursday, and we've got a full day of running planned, so I'm hoping to get a full tank of fuel at the start of the day, which means I'll be able to learn how a changing fuel load feels in this car. But, from LFS, I think I already know, and I think it'll correlate pretty closely.
In my opinion, what missing with any simulation is the lack of feedback of what is happening at the rear end of a rear wheel drive car. There's no real sense of when the rear tires are at the limits of traction due to a combination of cornering and throttle pressure. For most racing games, optimizing steering and throttle inputs for what is happening at the rear end of a car seems to be more of an issue of memorizing control inputs as opposed to getting a true sense of what is really going on.
In real life, first a driver has to get a sense of how much throttle can be applied while exiting corners depending on the line and apex speed that driver takes on each corner. This also involve memorization, but there's also a great deal of feedback that can be used to make adjustements. Then there's the issue of dealing with tire wear over the course of a run (between pit stops) and making adjustments to make optimal usage of the changes in a car's behavior over time.
The other issue is the visual difference between looking at a flat screen with a limited picture as opposed to real world view from the cockpit of a car, even if the real world view is somewhat restricted as well. You get a better sense of speed due to the real world detail of the track and track side objects.
They often talk about adjustments being made to compensate for tyre wear/condition in v8 supercars, but they are heavy 600bhp rwd cars so you would expect that
I doubt tyre wear would effect handling in LFS at this stage other than its effect on tyre temp would be good if it does though.
I believe we can be pretty sure that right now in LFS tyre wear affects handling by:
- altering the heat capacity of the tyre (cools quicker when worn)
- reducing tyre weight when worn (better handling all around)
- reducing tyre circumference/diameter when worn (lower top speed)
What could be factored in:
- different flexing/aligning behaviour of the rubber when worn (theoretically there's less rubber to flex, thus lower optimal slip angles)
What's probably not happening:
- alternation of the tyre's base grip coefficient/level
add to that list
- tyre chemistry change due to heat cyles
- blistering, graining, etc
- heat and cooling not yet modelled well across all tyres (from road to slick)
- wear affecting shape of tyre thus changing optimal camber settings etc
- as tread wear on road tyre behaviour changes as area of contact increases, which would effect heat/cool cycles and grip behaviour
- tyre temp changes affects tyre flex/aligning behaviour
Have you verified "reducing tyre circumference/diameter when worn (lower top speed)"? I'd like to think that the 2nd and 3rd points are implemented but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect.
Not really important without reusing tyres over several sessions, is it?
True and valid...
I'd believe that LfS already does that? I believe I used that for a race once: the inside would get worn first, which lead to evenly worn tyres by the time I had to pit to change them...
Implied in the above point, no?
At least air expansion inside the tyre is modeled, thus changing pressure with temperature... If that affects flex/aligning, I don't know...
LFS is relatively close, however simulating real life, in real time, and doing it perfectly, simply isn't in reach of modern house hold computer right now.
i dont understand this, what are u trying to say? all i said was that the comparison of wii and hand eye coordination wasnt anything like the comparison of LFS and real life driving skill.
perfectly put. but i think even then, unless you can properly simulate the safety aspect, youll never really get a proper feel for it all. but id say thats mostly a "fun" aspect to give you that extra buzz, as far as being able to use the simulator to help you with ur driving, i think its very realistic to think once driving simulators get better they will be a useful tool in helping professional drivers.
You could find this question answered dozens if not hundreds of times if you read through all the posts on this board, but I save you from that hassle.
Making very much money out of Nextgen (that's actually Previousgen in a short while) console game needs big marketing. And for big marketing, or basically even publishing a console game you need a publisher. And to get a publisher you have to have a product to convince the publisher with, that it's going to sell a lot. LFS is not that kind of product, because of all game sells racing games only cover a tiny portion. And of all racing games simulators only cover a tiny portion. And of all simulators LFS covers a tiny portion. Making a console version wouldn't be economically reasonable.
Other reasons why it wouldn't be reasonable: Consoles don't even have a proper hardware to play LFS with, and LFS has too long life cycle, it would have to be rewritten several times because there's always this "next gen" every 5 years or so...
What is the source of the feedback for this 5% slip at the rear tires in the case of LFS?
It was a generic statement. Tire heat / wear is an issue in all but the shortest of races, even without pit stops.
Depth perception? It's a flat 2 dimensional image, there is no depth perception. Depending on surface details, and depth scaling, every racing game gives off a difference sense of distance between the virtual driver's view and some point ahead on the track, and this also affects speed perception.
Turn off the sound and view a replay, and it's difficult to tell when the tires are at the limits during the replay.
Does any game give you the same perception of speed that you get in the real life Reynard? Even an on board video of from a real race car won't give you much sense of speed at a track with little surface detail (like asphalt), and few or no track side objects without the sound.
I tested this yesterday. To my surprise, while the tyre does wear unevenly, it seems like the changed camber is not taken into account. I did a 200-0 locked front brake test on the XRT (-3.5° live camber, with passenger, for even weight distribution), and compared the live feedback when driving on a worn/normal tyre section. Modifying the custom camera to show a closeup of the front right wheel, I could easily distinguish when I was on the worn section (not when F9 shows it!) - the car would visibly drop into the section, which at least is an indicator that the reduced circumference/diameter is taken into account.
1) The live camber while driving over the worn section does not change, or only in 0.0x° range, which can be attributed to a different weight distribution when the front dips in. If it were implemented, we'd easily see a 1°+ camber change. Yes, live camber does show the camber of the tyre surface, not of the wheel.
2) The grey load bars in F9 view did not change, which is consistent with point #1. On a unevenly worn section the load should be much more equal, but it stayed pretty much the same as on a non-worn section.
If this was implemented, I think we'd see two main changes:
- The cornering ability would change on unevenly worn tyres, usually for the worse.
- Flatspots would have a slightly greater effect on handling and force feedback.
Interesting tests Android thanks for taking the time to do them
The things I would like to see imrpoved the most in regards to tyres is:
- tyre wear affects camber and contact patch in general
- better heat modeling of road tyres accounting for tread and tread wear
- temperature effects malubility of rubber (it's a small consideration in relation to tyre flex/aligning behaviour and It would also impact contact patch area)
Is longitudinal flex modeled in LFS like lateral flex?
Yep in real life racing tyres generally get worse towards the end of there run, in LFS that's when there the best.
It is important because not breaking in tyres properly (i.e. heating them up unevenly and too quickly) leads to early tyre problems, which would be interesting in longer races and enduros.
Aural, visual and through the wheel. It's a great feeling balancing the LX6 on the sidewall deflection. As for 5%, it was just a random figure to illustrate a point.
Heat yes. Wear? No. Unless you're rich and can afford a compound so soft that it wears out in an hour. We (and most club racers) tend to look at the wear between races, and concentrate solely on temperatures at a meeting.
It may be a 2D image, but through it you can percieve depth. Isn't that, be definition, depth perception? I can do it. I know, by looking, when a car is 200m or so away, or when I have to start braking for a looming corner.
I don't think that's limited to games. Turn off the sound in real life and it would be harder too. Probably. How many totally deaf professional racing drivers are there? But I agree it's harder in a sim because so many of the messages that tell you about the limit come from sound, visual and FFB, only one of which is active in a muted replay.
Hard to say really. You never notice the speed in a racing car, because you're concentrating on the next corner, or thinking about a change of driving line, or looking at dials. Sadly there isn't any spare time to think 'cor, I'm going fast, look at the scenery whizz past'. And when I watch the videos of me driving I tend to know what I was doing at the time, and so still miss the speed thing.
Anyway, I play LFS with a FOV of 88° - 90°, and find the sense of speed quite good, without noticeable visual distortion, but I gather the balance between speed:distortion is a very personal thing.
Before I say anything I'd like to say that this is coming from someone who has neither been to a trackday OR in a real-life race.
I realize this is a while back, but I was just reading through this thread a bit, and I'd have to disagree. The LFSer would by no means have any edge on the person who had had a real trackday. The LFSer might have learned passing and had what you could call "racing environment experience" but that in no way prepares you for real life. I have been racing in LFS for more than two years, and I still get really spooked when I get placed towards the front of a 20 car grid on the ConeDodgers server for fear that I'll cause a massive pileup. I think the trackday person would likely be MUCH better at his first race, because he's already had the racing experience by himself, so all he has to to is learn how to respond to a group, whereas the LFSer has had NEITHER experience in real life. Besides, at a trackday, you do pass slower cars, which is exactly what a race is like after the first few laps.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. But I know as well as it is possible to know that my first racing season wouldn't have been as successful as it was relying on track day experience alone. Every single race I called upon my LFS experience. But I have had rather a lot of LFS experience, and I have watched a lot of motorsport too, and I understand the underlying vehicle dynamics too, how vehicles work, how to fix them and so on, so maybe that's not ENTIRELY fair.
But I'd have be, on average, about a second per lap slower without LFS.
Well that wouldn't be a "game-related" feature as much as a setup-related feature. If you have a way of providing undistorted peripheral vision then you'll have a very close sense of speed to what you'd have in real life - otherwise, at a calculated FOV (based on your distance from the monitor and the monitor's size), it is like driving with blinkers on.
confirms my thoughts somewhat. Fuel load was the obvious one to me, but tyre temps I didn't really expect to change in ratio back/front too much which caught me out. But I guess fuel load will effect the tyre heat profile during a race as the wieght front/rear will change, then as the tyre heat profile changes the handling worsens which in turn increases the effect 
would be good if it does though.