i was in simulationx drift server geetin used 2 my new wheel and then this dude said me 2 take of the RS*R skin, which i have been using 4 ages now. Every week i just copy all skins from skins_x into Skins folder and these guys were tllein me it was illegel. Is it? Cos it was annoying cos they were like tryin 2 ban me cos of a SKIN?!?! :thumbsdow
Skins that teams create are intended for team members only. Likewise for someone who spends time and effort creating a skin for their own personal use.
So don't be surprised if people don't like you using their skins, it is better to ask first and get their permission. There's not alot they can do to MAKE you stop using them, apart from make your life harder with kicking, banning etc.
There are skins that people create for public use, check out Master Skinnerz
Lets say one day I walked passed your house. I saw you come out wearing some clothes I liked, and thought "thats pretty cool" (bear with me). So I waited until you weren't looking, snuck into your house, took all your clothes, put them on, and then walked around your neighbourhood so you'd see me.
Wouldn't you be a bit cross? I know in LFS it's not techically a criminal offence, but it's not nice. The reason the skins go in the skins_X folder is so that you know which ones are yours and which ones are other peoples.
but i thought as i havent said i make it, if any1 asks where i got it form i say some (anyteam) member it would b ok.Anyhoo, if they idntwant people using them, y would they put them on LFSWORLD or something for others 2 download
*in response to the stealing clothes from house thing*true, but what if i had them and any1 who sees them can get them from thier warddrobre
and if it so bad, why did LFS makers put the skins_x in anyway
**PS** thanks for all the comments
Probably best to just use public or personal skins, its a can of worms that isnt worth opening, unless you drive from the outside view then the skin doesnt make a great deal of difference really anyway.
Well, I think people put them on LFSW so you can SEE them, not use them on your own car. And team skins should be a definite no-no.
You're less likely to get into trouble (bans, kicks, abuse) if you restrict yourself to using only personal skins, and ideally asking the person you got it from if it's okay. Most of the time, if you ask, people will be flattered.
Danowat - I made it quite clear that my example wasn't entirely accurate because it's not a crime in LFS, so your comment was unneccessary. I guess it depends on what you define stealing as. If I make a skin, I own the intellectual copyright on that skin (assuming I didn't copy it or use other people's logo's without permission), so if someone else uses it without my persmission then you could argue it's stealing.
well technically you download the skins just to SEE them (thus the skins_x folder). If every racer would permanently "stream" his skin into the game there would be only head to head races possible. Using a team or personal skin is not really illegal but I think it should be ;-) Some guy invests many hours of work to show off, and then some other guy takes this piece of art (well, mostly it is) and drives around with it or even alters it. IMO that's not very fair. So go to Master skinnerz, look at the stunning skins, e.g. in the skin contest. They're all public, that means you may USE them freely (does NOT mean that you are allowed to doodle around with them except for an individual number or so). You can also have your skin personalized by one of the skinnerz there, they are really nice folks!
hope I could help.
butz
So even though the skin's base is public domain, you own the copyright on a skin you have made?, and would be stealing if someone else were to use it?
I think you would stuggle to claim copyright infringement for something that is "given" to people via the LFSworld system, is based on public domain originals, AND, not being sold by you for monetary gain.
Like I have said, it is bad manners, I would'nt do it, I would'nt expect others to do it purely down to manners, but to start banding around legalitys, copyrights and stealing is wrong.
Oooh, yes! Let's drag intellectual copyright into this, that'll be fun!
(no offence, Tristan, I actually agree with you. It's just that discussions about IP are usually highways to nowhere).
@S14 Drift: Even aside from using someone else's personal skin: I understand you were using a TEAM skin. Team skins are created to identify a specific team that works together and has a reputation to uphold. I think anyone can understand them not liking the fact that you used their team-skin when you're not in their team.
yes yes, but 2 things, 1 i was using that skin on a server once with RS*R meber and he didnt car, adn 2 the person who tryed 2 ban me wanst in the team in question
*thanks 4 the tips*
Using other people's skins is ok only if you have got the permission from the creator of the skin beforehand. Many people have invested a lot of time to make their skins.
I would be very pissed if noticed someone else using my skin. Like I bet many others would. The reason I have created my own skins is that people can and could recognize me from my skin and so that I could be distunguished from a group of people. If people started using them they wouldn't be anymore my personal skins. I know that my skins aren't exactly good in artistic terms but it's mine and for my use only
Great - didn't know you could do this. Must go through that folder to find some skins I like lol
With regards intellectual property rights, copyright etc, its only a crime if the person who created the skin has actually applied for copyright on it (in English Law). You don't just get copyright as a matter of course. You must apply. I doubt anyone has actually bothered - it costs money.
So, probably all skins are fair game with regard the law. Obviously if someone was unhappy about it I would remove the skin from my collection without hesitation. And I do think using team skins of a team you're not in is a bit off.
btw - I'd be pleased if I saw people using my skins.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. People make public skins for anyone to use and people make personal skins for themselves.
It's just about respect in the end, if you use someone's personal/team skin and they ask you to stop using it, just stop using it. Better yet don't use personal or teams skins to start with and if you don't know if it's personal or public don't use it.
Personally I think it would be a nice feature to have the area where most skinners put their name, logo, webaddress,... also show up in the LFS garage. Not on the car of course
That way skinners could add PUBLIC USE / NOT FOR PUBLIC USE -like messages to their skins, and people using these skins would immediatly see these messages while browsing through skins in the LFS garage. Most people "stealing" skins don't do it intentionally. They just see there's a bunch of cool skins in the skins_x directory and move them over to their own skins folder. Usually they don't check each skin in a graphics program or previewer, and in the LFS garage you don't get to see the skinner's name, address, copyright notice. If this area would be shown in the LFS garage, even these people would see the NOT FOR PUBLIC USE messages on several skins. Not that this will prevent people from stealing skins, but those who are now unaware of it might stop using it. And for those who don't, there's no more excuse they didn't see it...
danowat: And why should that be so? If I take a picture, I have a copyright on that picture. If I draw a picture, the same goes up. If people view my pictures/drawings on my website, they also download a copy to their harddisk (browser cache - compare it with skins_x). That's ok, nothing illegal. They are allowed to do so for personal use. But it would be wrong for them to use any of my graphics on their own webpage or somewhere else where other people will be able to view it. They should first ask permission.
So if I design a skin, the copyright is also mine. That my skin is also on everyone's computer I raced with doesn't mean I permit them to use it freely. I permit them to view my work, not redistribute it.
People cloning existing skins may be on thin ice since they usually didn't ask the originating racing team (or whoever who did the real car) permission to use their "skin". Of course they still had to do all graphics work by themselves...
Why?, because its not that simple, you don't automatically get a copyright on something because you have made it, at least in the UK, you first need to apply for patents, registered designs or trademarks, before you can have a copyrighted item, also, I am fairly sure that you can't copyright something that you are not getting monetary gain for, also the fact that the thing you have created is from a PD "blank" muddies the waters further.
Copyright is a BIG pain in the neck, I am a designer for packaging etc, trust me, its hard enough to get copyrights for our designs, and you have to jump through many hoops to do so, just because you have created something, it doesnt automatically mean you own a copyright to it.
I am not talking about the respect or manners factor, but the fact that you would NEVER, EVER be able to get anything like copyright infringement for a skin to stand up in court, plus it would cost you an arm and a leg to do so.
I don't know about the UK, but here in Belgium / The Netherlands you automatically have a copyright on everything you create (literature, art, software,...). You don't need to apply for patents. That's something completely different (and is costly here too). The copyright is yours for whole your life and applies even up to 70 years after your death.
You don't even have to put up a copyright notice on your work, although it's recommended to avoid confusion.
I have quite a few links about this, but all in Dutch. I'll see if I can find excerpts of the law in English.
Again, that would introduce another problem, the variables of different laws in different countries.
Best thing to do is not bring up the "legality" of it, and just hope that peoples manners and respect stop them using a skin which they shouldnt.
It's true that you can't take what Tristan wrote literally, but in the context of the game, it's a very good analogy. When you choose a skin, you choose a set of clothes for your car.
When doing so it is my opinion that you should always view the skin in a windows file viewer and look for text on the parts of the skin.jpg which don't show up on the car. If it says this skin is private don't use it then don't it's that simple.
This argument has come up many times before and will no doubt come up many times again. I too doubt that any effective action could be taken against copyright theft, we're talking about 3rd party freeware content which has been voluntarily released onto the internet for a videogame.
No usage control agreements exist between any of the parties involved, and the bottom line is that we're usually talking about a single image.
At the end of the day some people will show respect for a skinners work and wishes and some people will not. If those who do not do so out of ignorance then it might be an idea to start a sticky thread in the skinning section which says something simple like "make sure you look at every skin you want to use in windows explorer before you use it and ensure that there are no usage restrictions written on it." Then all you need is to encourage skinners to simply write somethign like "private skin don't use/public skin use but don't edit/public skin do want you want with it" on their work.
I guess you have understood little wrong the idea of copyrights and patents. I feel that I'm pretty right when I say this: When you create something that can be seen something with artistic value, may it be a tea cup or a skin you always have the copyright for it, you don't need to apply for it. You don't need to even mark the artistic piece of work with your name etc.. It's your work and you have the copyright for it after you have made one mark size of one pixel on the paper.
Patents are different, you always need to apply for it, otherwise everyone can use/manufacture and sell it. In this matter patents are completely different thing.
The problem with this copyright is that you can make/create/borrow something very similar/the actual picture etc. without it being a copyright issue. So you can and you are allowed to use other people's skins legally without having to even ask their permission for it. if you "use" it privately.
You can't alter the picture, skin, in any way and show it publicly and you can't use other people's skins online or "publicly". Without permission. Permission to use it doesn't mean permission to edit it.
But some people see this the same way they see the p2p programs. If you can get something without paying anything/doing it yourself why bother. The thing that if something is easily downloadable from internet (skins, haxored computer programs or games) doesn't mean that you immediatelly gain all rights to it simply because you have a copy from it.
Skins in skin_x folder are not for your use.
Using other people's skins without permission is a punishable act and imho any self respecting team should insta ban such members.
I think it's simply better to write on the skins what permissions the user has to that skin, instead of writing the obvious "do not" stuff. If the skin is free, so the user may edit and use it freely, the creator could write: "public skin, free for use, but do not edit" or "public skin, free for use and edit". This would stop people using other people's skins simply because someone didn't remember to write the obvious text on to it.
:thumbsdow
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