every bike does the only difference with a bicycle is that its mass and gyro forces are small enough that you can easily push the bike away from the direction you want to go strongly enough that the front wheel will automagically countersteer for you through gyro effects and the caster
Hmm, guess I'll have something interesting to experiment with next time I go for a bike ride.
Ah my mistake then...
just walk your bike around a little with one hand on the saddle to test this
I remember the first time I went on a tricycle after riding a 2-wheeler since childhood.. moreover, I remember the pain! I tried to do what I did on a 2-wheeler.. turn the bars fractionally, and lean into the corner. Ouch! 
To know that its enough to lean a bike to turn it one doesnt need to be a pro racer, just needs to have some knowledge of physics, which seems Keith Code lacks.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mangularmo.html
End of debate i suppose.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mangularmo.html
End of debate i suppose.
too bad its wrong since for that to be true youd have to constantly increase the lean angle while you turn
Seems like TrackIR with 6 degrees of freedom might be perfect controller for bikes. You've probably seen it in action already: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJxbI3uAXG0
Now just imagine all these moves of your head are actually moving the weight and shape of simulated driver's body and it's done!
Tuck in, straighten up, lean left/right, move forward/back, pitch, yaw...
Now just imagine all these moves of your head are actually moving the weight and shape of simulated driver's body and it's done!
Tuck in, straighten up, lean left/right, move forward/back, pitch, yaw...Now that's a really fantastic idea!
But...
Now we just need two joysticks glued from bottom to bottom as one device, and bolt it to the table to simulate handle bars. And G25's sequential shifter above left leg to simulate gear lever. And one pedal under right leg to simulate rear brake. We still need to figure out how to attach clutch and front brake levers to that handle bar device though, and build a chair that would make a decent riding position possible, but anyway I'd say we have a cheap, easy and accessible bike controller. Welcome bikes!
Yeah frokki, and game controler companies will rush to make these without there being any game that requires them, nor the market demanding them.
If you build it, they will come!
That would work.
Go for bikes. Not that I will use 'em.
Riding with no hands or body leaning is an indirect method of counter-steering. A rider leans inwards, the bicycle, or motorcycle leans outwards, and the trail geometry results in an outwards (counter) steering response to the outwards lean of the bicycle or motorcycle.
This only works with in a certain range of speeds. Too slow and there's not enough trail response, too fast (100+mph) and gyroscopic forces dominate, slowing the bikes lean response to the point that body leaning has virtually no effect.
As far as only using counter-steering to control a motorcycle, link to videos of a computerized "robot" driven motorcycle that only countersteers, run 4 is the best. The bike is able to recover from collisions.
http://www.ghostriderrobot.com/index.php?id=robot
This only works with in a certain range of speeds. Too slow and there's not enough trail response, too fast (100+mph) and gyroscopic forces dominate, slowing the bikes lean response to the point that body leaning has virtually no effect.
As far as only using counter-steering to control a motorcycle, link to videos of a computerized "robot" driven motorcycle that only countersteers, run 4 is the best. The bike is able to recover from collisions.
http://www.ghostriderrobot.com/index.php?id=robot
Motorcycles turn by leaning. The (oval shaped) contact patch moves up the left side of the tire in a left hand turn. Because the left side of the contact patch is on a portion of the tire with a smaller radius than the right, it travels less distance with each revolution, causing the turn. Think of a solid axle with a bigger wheel on the right side. It would turn left when rolled.
Wouldn't that make bicycles (motor or not) turn uphill when rolling across an incline?
No they don't
Actually that wasn't the debate at all. At least not as I remember it. The debate was about whether a steering input (ie handlebars) was ALL that was required to fully control, (not just steer), a motorcycle in a sim, (presumably under racing conditions). Some said yes it was all that was required, others argued that to be fully accurate you would need to be able to simulate body movement and pressures placed on footpegs etc.
To which all I can add is the following links:
http://www.sportrider.com/ride ... _body_steering/index.html
http://www.sportrider.com/ride ... unter_steering/index.html
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html
and to your final point the opinions of some of the best motorcycle riders in the world:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html
Make of it all what you will.
Actually, at any useful speed they do. Just that countersteering is what initiates the lean. Once the bike is leaned in countersteering is no longer used until you want to initiate coming out of the lean.
Agreed. But it is a comination of camber thrust and slip angle that creates the lateral acceleration, so it is both lean and (non-counter) steering that enables bikes to go around corners.
Regarding oval shapes, camber thrust. Put two cups with smaller "inside" diameters than "outside" diamters, into a frame so both cups' axis's are parallel. The device will go straight, not turn:
http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike1.html
Motorcycles turn because the front tire is not pointed in the same direction as the outside tire. If the turn is coordinated, then the lean angle is held, if not, the lean angle changes.
Regarding not couner-steering once leaned over, it depends on the riders position. If the rider doesn't hang off, then the trail geometry will create an inwards torque force on the front wheel trying to straighten up the motorcycle. In order to hold a lean angle, some amount of counter-steering torque needs to be constantly applied to counter the self correcting torque from the trail geometry.
At very high speeds (100+mmph), gyroscopic forces reduce the self-correction to virtually nill, and instead result in a tendency maintain a lean angle, and very little counter-steering effort is required to maintain the lean angle.
If a rider hangs off, then the center of gravity is off to one side, and with the reduced lean angle of the motorcyle, there is less corrective steering torque, and this changes the steering inputs required to hold a turn.
A motorcycle is a "uni-track" vehicle. The center of mass of the rider / motorcycle system can't be shifted sideways without an external force, such as the pavement responding with an "inwards" reaction force to the tires "outward" force caused by the front tire's direction being different than the rear tire's direction, or by a rider's body movement creating a torque, similar to a person riding a bicycle on a high wire (where the wheels can't turn) by rotatain his arms or upper body, and then letting gravity continue to supply a torque force until the rider re-corrects before the bicycle leans too far. Trials riders sometimes swing a leg back and forth to balance a stationary motorcycle. In these cases, the ratio of rider to motorcycle mass is higher than a typical situaion (trials motorcyles are mcuh lighter than normal motorcycles).
http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike1.html
Motorcycles turn because the front tire is not pointed in the same direction as the outside tire. If the turn is coordinated, then the lean angle is held, if not, the lean angle changes.
Regarding not couner-steering once leaned over, it depends on the riders position. If the rider doesn't hang off, then the trail geometry will create an inwards torque force on the front wheel trying to straighten up the motorcycle. In order to hold a lean angle, some amount of counter-steering torque needs to be constantly applied to counter the self correcting torque from the trail geometry.
At very high speeds (100+mmph), gyroscopic forces reduce the self-correction to virtually nill, and instead result in a tendency maintain a lean angle, and very little counter-steering effort is required to maintain the lean angle.
If a rider hangs off, then the center of gravity is off to one side, and with the reduced lean angle of the motorcyle, there is less corrective steering torque, and this changes the steering inputs required to hold a turn.
A motorcycle is a "uni-track" vehicle. The center of mass of the rider / motorcycle system can't be shifted sideways without an external force, such as the pavement responding with an "inwards" reaction force to the tires "outward" force caused by the front tire's direction being different than the rear tire's direction, or by a rider's body movement creating a torque, similar to a person riding a bicycle on a high wire (where the wheels can't turn) by rotatain his arms or upper body, and then letting gravity continue to supply a torque force until the rider re-corrects before the bicycle leans too far. Trials riders sometimes swing a leg back and forth to balance a stationary motorcycle. In these cases, the ratio of rider to motorcycle mass is higher than a typical situaion (trials motorcyles are mcuh lighter than normal motorcycles).
What that article ignores though, is that the one of the tyres is of course steered, so these effects can come into play. I'm not sure how strong these forces are compared to steering though, especially on a rounded bike compared to a squarer car type tyre.
if you really want lfs to be a really good simulator for cars, why add bikes that can never ever ever be controlled like real life with only one steering axis. how bikes steer is you turn the front wheel to work as a gyroscope which causes the bike to lean then you steer into the corner. you also use a bit of body weight shifting, i definitely don't want bikes in lfs because it will stray the devs away from what lfs was originally made for, cars!
This topic always attracts some odd opinions where ever it might be posted (you lean to steer- twisting force on the front wheel results in the gyroscopic effect leaning the entire bike over- you push down on a footpeg- the bars don't move- you continue steering the "wrong way" through the entire corner- I don't countersteer on my bike- countersteering doesn't work in any way at low speed etc etc etc).
The basic principle is so simple, and it's documented everywhere. All it takes is 10 minutes of reading what others have written in reputable literature, rather than just assuming what you think is right, is right.
Amusingly they're even weirder on bike forums.
The basic principle is so simple, and it's documented everywhere. All it takes is 10 minutes of reading what others have written in reputable literature, rather than just assuming what you think is right, is right.
Amusingly they're even weirder on bike forums.
Yeah, that.
I use various parts of my body to turn the bike. Depending on the circumstances that is. Like avoiding a pot hole or a nail, i'll just shift my hips. A slow, wide turn - I'll push down on the handlebars in the direction of the turn. on a sharp and faster corner, I'll lean all into it. when I'm maneuvering in parking lot, I turn more with turning the handlebars.I don't think with the stuff we have now as far as controllers goes that it would be very good to have bikes in LFS. There's just too many variables that out there for bikes and turning to be even halfway simulated correctly.
all correct and everything but please dont blur the line between countersteering as in pointing the front tyre in the wrong direction to the outside of the turn with countersteering as in keeping the front from pointin into thr turn more than it already does
the confusion on most people and motorcyclists is bad enough as it is
End Of One Debate - Motorcycles and LFS
(89 posts, started )
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