Yes to both questions (although it doesn't kill the engine as in damage it kills it as in stalling).
The clutch as implemented at the moment is not a 100% simulation and will have bugs especially in areas that are extreme or outside what is considered normal racing conditions.
The important thing is that it behaves as expected in race conditions most of the time, this can be said about a number of physics implementations in LFS including areo and tyres.
Show me were Scawen claims anything but what I just stated.
Okay first, the engine can't spin backwards, at least not in LFS (it might be possible in real life, but I believe it's coupled with heavy damage :shrug. Anyway, the autoclutch itself actually isn't the problem either, just let me give you an example:
The car spins (you're driving/rolling/skidding backwards).
Correct behaviour:
- Clutch in
- Apply brakes or try to regain control otherwise
Incorrect behaviour:
- Don't clutch in
- Stay on throttle (for whatever reason)
Now if we examine the incorrect behaviour, two scenarios can happen.
Incorrect + manual clutch:
- The engine stalls (throttle didn't help)
- The driven wheels lock up, as the engine cannot rotate backwards
- You feel like an idiot, restart the engine and continue the race
Incorrect + autoclutch:
- The engine is about to stall, so the autoclutch kicks in, preventing it from doing so
- The autoclutch mechanism detects that you are on the throttle and thus obviously like to accelerate the car. Therefore the clutch is eased in, slipping it to smoothly accelerate while still preventing the stall. Your current speed is about -100km/h and you're in 4th gear, the result is a burnt clutch.
- You scream bloody murder and write a rant thread on the forums about how wrong the clutch modelling is. Then you get corrected and feel like an idiot.
If LFS introduces a rubbish Clutch simulation, then I will stop playing and/or posting. But it's pretty good really if you drive in a realistic fashion.
One thing that really just gets old and really makes you think is this bloke typing stupid? Is the fact that people question the physics engine and the physics itself saying:
"its wrong, this ain't right, in RL it doesn't do this, doesn't do that, quack quack quack quack quack" etc...
Of course nothing going to be good yet, we haven't even gotten to s2 final. We JUST got the clutch heat a few months ago. It has NOT been updated.
Cant people simply read "Live For Speed S2 ALPHA"? Is it really that hard?
Whilst that is true it's completely irrelevant in this case.
As has been said many times now, the clutch operates correctly under normal racing conditions.
THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE CLUTCH SORO!
Sorry for shouting, but his pig ignorant refusal to believe that he is the problem is winding me up.
He speaks as if he's the only person that's got any real world driving experience.
For your information Soro, 99% of Europeans drive a Manual gearbox.
No one is asking you to drive like a granny in the sim. I and many others drive long stints flat out and don't have the slightest problem, why is this?
You may not think you have to prove anything, but I'm afraid that without some 'proof' your comments are just a worthless rant and nothing else.
Swallow your pride for a second and post a replay/setup.
Be man enough to accept you don't know it all and be prepared to learn something. This stupid argument can stop and you get to learn something that will make LFS even more enjoyable for you.
It's a no lose situation
So the real issue here is the autoclutch behavior combined with the very tall first gear? I assume a non-autoclutch isn't going to have this same issue, as the tires could be spun instead.
Or the person using the manual clutch incorrectly.
On the previous page I posted some replays where I started in 5th gear with autoclutch. In the latter there is hardly any heat at all.
Are you pulling away very slowly in sixth gear with auto-clutch? I can do 10 clutch dump starts to the rev limiter in first gear in a row with the amount of clutch heat attached. Maybe you could post a short replay of you trying to do the same so we can see how hard it is
Erm... no the ISI model doesn't simulate clutch heat or wear
Credibility? What are you talking about? I'm not here to be credible, I'm just exposing a problem that the game has.
Ok, GTR2 does not simulate clutch failures, and I was not happy with this example, but it does simulate brake and engine heating and failures, and you can burn them, but you need to do things that will cause this effect such as you'll do in real cars.
I mean, you feel that you are doing something wrong and you can avoid it.
But in LFS you can't feel if you are pushing too hard the clutch. A little mistake and the clutch goes away.
People here use to get some things out the point. The discussion is if the clutch is realistc or not, and I said not. But credibility, blablabla... comon... how old are you?
There shouldn't be any damage as far as I can tell; if it spins fine foward it will spin fine in reverse. Shouldn't be any fuel coming in and firing at odd times or anything like that as it will be shot back out the intake manifold. When I was a wee lad, the massive diesel in my grandfather's tractor began to run backwards for a short period of time when it got backing down an incline. Scared the bajeebers out of me as things began spraying out of the air filter and it was sucking in air through the exhaust pipe with a weather cap on it (serious hiss). Of course being compression ignition it was firing probably right at TDC or close to it and the systems were all mechanical so it worked for a short time. Anyway, sorry for the interjection.
edit: BTW Sorro, racing clutches can take much less abuse than road car clutches. They are stronger, sure, but they have higher coefficients of friction (thus both wear and heat easier) and are smaller (surface area), not bigger, than conventional clutches. Also, I don't think anyone is denying that you can do things (if you try) to heat up the clutches in LFS easier than you can IRL, but the fact IS that those things don't affect proper racing. Much like the fact that you can crash head on at 300k and move right along - it can be done, and it's not realistic, but it's an extreme situation that is not fundamental to racing. THAT is the point. Yes you can hold you car on an incline IRL (why you would do that I fail to understand, but that's beside the point) longer than in LFS. Note: IT DOES NOT MATTER to racing.
What a silly rule, if you can't drive the car how it's meant to be driven then obviously people will run into problems. If people just dump the clutch in first gear after pitstops and spins as everyone does in a competition car by choice for pretty similar reasons you shouldn't run into problems.
I think a lot of people don't understand that slipping a triple plate racing clutch is very very difficult IRL and real drivers do not pull away gently from idle in first let alone any other gear. For this reason the results of trying to pull away from a hopeless situation which the auto clutch will slip for you normally result in a stall IRL.
I know about stalling - I did it on the grid the other day, like a fool, and had to start from the back. Had it been a nice road clutch I'd have slipped it, and lost a few meaningless seconds. Oh, and my first gear is good for about 65mph (not much compared to some very fast cars I know).
In LFS the race engines don't stall quite easily enough, but it would be rather mean to give us such a sharp clutch without motion platforms being the norm.
There are two cars that don't give a disadvantage to auto-clutch users. Getting a clutch pedal isn't really prohibitively hard or expensive, there's no need to buy a three pedal set to get a separate clutch.
Or you stay on throttle without even touching the clutch, the car doesn't stall (this is the point where the simulation fails?), and you heat up your clutch. Try it with FBM for example...
. Anyway, the autoclutch itself actually isn't the problem either, just let me give you an example:
