The inferno setups are NOT race setups, more hotlap. Many use locked diffs etc and are there to exploit the physics to get the BEST laptime possible. Most of them are used for WR runs etc.
The inferno setups are NOT race setups, more hotlap. Many use locked diffs etc and are there to exploit the physics to get the BEST laptime possible. Most of them are used for WR runs etc.
i agree 100%
@frokki: It can happen in cases where the clutch is relatively weak and the tyre grip strong. The engine is stalled/blocked and the tyres too grippy to just lock up, making the clutch the weakest link in the chain, which is then forced to rotate/slip even though it's fully engaged. Remember that the clutch strength is currently calculated by maximum engine torque and flywheel inertia, so the FBM with extremely low torque but high tyre grip is the ideal candidate for this situation. However, the heat generated there is, while considerable, not even close to what an autoclutch spin does to your clutch.
There are definitely small and medium sized holes in LFS' engine/transmission/clutch/etc. modelling, and nobody is denying that it doesn't behave correctly in every possible situation, but none of these issues are a problem at all during a race.
There are definitely small and medium sized holes in LFS' engine/transmission/clutch/etc. modelling, and nobody is denying that it doesn't behave correctly in every possible situation, but none of these issues are a problem at all during a race.
(pearcy_2k7)
DELETED
by Bob Smith : useless post, keep 'em in ya heed in future
The auto clutch rule is not silly, it's because people are taking advantage of button clutching again and more so macros, watch any one of Pecholoblos WR's and you will see why this rule is in effect.
As for the steaming it out of the pitstop full throttle, watch the south city long replay I posted up and watch Marco Shades second pitstop, he comes away from the pitstop so tenderly and his clutch still overheats.
I guess the problem really is that the FZR doesn't have the sequential gearbox like the XRR and FXR, I don't think it would be much a problem if they all used the same box. Still a balancing issue I guess, and that issue has been so overly debated that I don't wanna go back into it...again.
Ahh I see, well explained Ray, I didn't realise that there were any exploits that way. 
Sorry Bawbag but I don't have time to watch a huge replay, why don't you just quickly show me what the issue is pulling away from the pits with a reasonable first gear in the FZR?
Forcing the FZR to run with auto-clutch is daft because you're loosing an element of the simulation if people really can't be trusted not to use button clutch cheats in a league race that's a bit sad and if there isn't a way of detecting it you can't really realistically run the FZR.
Forcing the FZR to run with auto-clutch is daft because you're loosing an element of the simulation if people really can't be trusted not to use button clutch cheats in a league race that's a bit sad and if there isn't a way of detecting it you can't really realistically run the FZR.
I'm waiting someone to share a correct setup for XFG/BL considering the use of 3 pedals and manual clutch/shift.
Anyone?
tks
Anyone?
tks
He pits after 5 minutes but quite basicly, he pulls away with allmost no throttle and it still overheats the clutch. As for the unrealisticly long first gear, the car launches just as well with this longer gear than a shorter one. The reason the first gears were slightly long is becuase of the hairpin, 2nd is to long a gear to use and first would be to short if it would be "realistic".
As for trust, in leagues like the eTM and the GSL where there are some good prizes, people will do anything to make time, even if it means taking an advantage over their opponents then they will do it.
It's very simple to make a macro through the logitech profiler so that the clutch is enable as soon as you click the paddle, it's not even as hard as button clutching.
Isn't that just a calculated risk? Better gear ratios for maximum speed with the added danger of burning the clutch because of the long ratios used? If the problem goes away with shorter ratios, there really isn't much problems to begin with
.Kinda like clipping the apexes on Kyoto tracks. With a bit of luck you will get away with it. Take away the luck and the curb edges grab your tires like magnets and spin you around with evil laughter. When you go over the curb you consciously take the risk of spinning, just like when choosing to use long 1st gear in car which is known to be hard on the clutch.
And we are waiting for your replay showing unrealistic clutch behavior. Earlier you refused to do that, so why should we go to any more effort than you're willing to? You're the one making claims here after all.
I didn't really get my point accorss properly, sorry, what I was meaning that even with a shorter more 'realistic' first gear, the problem is still the same, the clutch still overheats in the pitstops. Sure if you make first gear only reach 20mph then the clutch wont heat up as much, but how 'realistic' is that?
Pulling away slowly is very difficult with almost no throttle isn't done IRL because it's impossible to balance a racing clutch like that. The autoclutch in LFS isn't good for pulling away with because it slips far too much for the amount of throttle applied, so the quicker you pull away the less damage you'll do. I still don't see why if it is really an issue you can't just dump the clutch in pit stops, in which case as I went and tested you could safely stop and start in every pit box without burning the clutch out if you really felt like it.
Hmm, from all the tests i've done, the clutch doesn't heat up as much when your using say 50% throttle as apposed to 100%.
I think it was the FBMW that the more throttle you used, the longer the clutch stayed engaged for.
So in my pitstops if I pulled away less viggerously, like not full throttle as it should be done, i'd gain less clutch heat.
I think it was the FBMW that the more throttle you used, the longer the clutch stayed engaged for.
So in my pitstops if I pulled away less viggerously, like not full throttle as it should be done, i'd gain less clutch heat.
Watched it and frankly it's very hard to tell what he's doing due to the replay lag, but I don't think "tenderly" is the word I would use. He's hardly on throttle before he's released, that's true, but to me it looks like he stomps on the throttle just as he's released causing clutch slip and heat. His 1st gear also seems to go to around 100+ km/h, which according to Android's experiments seem to be just a tad too long for a full throttle launch in the FZR.
Either way, about a lap with somewhat careful shifting would easily bring the temp back down from where it was after the pitstop.
id really like to know that youre doing there anyway
i just spent a few mins testing the clutch on the fzr with race_s and r2s on the rear wheels using full throttle starts at redline
by the time i got any meaningful clutch heat in the tyres were red hot and after about a lap of driving like ġŗoñħöłms grandmother on those undriveable rear tyres i was back into orange
although i still think the h gate on a fzr should be shiftable without using the clutch at all
i just spent a few mins testing the clutch on the fzr with race_s and r2s on the rear wheels using full throttle starts at redline
by the time i got any meaningful clutch heat in the tyres were red hot and after about a lap of driving like ġŗoñħöłms grandmother on those undriveable rear tyres i was back into orange
although i still think the h gate on a fzr should be shiftable without using the clutch at all
I just tried the FZR with auto-clutch on and my only good set for it, which by chance happens to have first redlining at 50mph. It pulls away without problem from multiple starts at full, half and just enough throttle. You've got six gears so one of them is going to have to be low enough to allow you to pull away, first gear is never normally used on racing cars, certainly not with six speed 'boxes except to pull away from a standstill calmly and normally for starts, although if you're not using all the gears there could be logic in having first very low and second ideal for a clutch dump sitauation, in reality at least.
We already proved in earlier threads that it's perfectly possible to pull away in any gear with almost no heat if you control the thottle and clutch correctly so it's hardly as if there's any large issue with the LFS clutch modeling just that it realistically burns the clutch out if you try and pull away badly with a very long first gear on a racing clutch.
We already proved in earlier threads that it's perfectly possible to pull away in any gear with almost no heat if you control the thottle and clutch correctly so it's hardly as if there's any large issue with the LFS clutch modeling just that it realistically burns the clutch out if you try and pull away badly with a very long first gear on a racing clutch.
even with a gear that tops out at ~120 and a mouse i can easily pull away with addin no more than 1 or 2 pixels of heat... and thats hardly an ideal setup
Try revving up and then dropping it into gear (with autoclutch). I believe that is what's happening to the people having trouble pulling away from a pit stop.
this way using race_s i have to go up to 4th to get into the reds and that gear tops out at just a bit below 200
and even 5th doesnt get me far enough into the reds to make the clutch slip under full acceleration and after a couple of laps of taking it easy while shifting im back into orange
Yeah, race_s has a fairly short first gear, so that seems about right. With a first gear similar to the one in Bawbag's replay (108km/h) it takes me 3 full throttle starts to go from a cold clutch to an overheating one using that method. It depends highly on the length of the gear though. It doesn't take many km/h lower to extend it to 4-5 starts.
This is extreme clutch abuse though. Even moderate feathering of the throttle to keep the revs sane completely removes the problem. I can't understand why anyone would just stomp on the throttle while hearing the autoclutch slip like that.
This is extreme clutch abuse though. Even moderate feathering of the throttle to keep the revs sane completely removes the problem. I can't understand why anyone would just stomp on the throttle while hearing the autoclutch slip like that.
In the end the problem is that too many people think of and treat LFS like normal race games out on the market instead of enjoying the complexity a sim brings to the table.
They want to pretend that they are a great and fast race driver but do not actually want to deal with what that actually entails. They do not want to deal with mechanical sympathy and balance car abuse with speed they just want to pretend they can drive fast.
Why should they have to drive a 50 lap race differently from a 3 lap sprint?
Why should they have ease off and nurse cooked tyres for a lap or so to let them cool a little?
Why do they have to worry about loss of grip when they put a tyre on the the mud?
Why does the clutch cook when I slip it all the time? I have driven a car around town for 20 years and never cooked a clutch and these are race cars so what gives?
Same happened when tyre heat cam in. Before then most people pushed far to far and too hard because they could and then all of a sudden they had to deal with the reality that tyres cook up and lose grip.
In the end racing is not about who is the fastest round the track, that is qualification and hot lapping. Racing is about keeping the car in one piece for the duration of the race while pushing as hard as you can.
This sort of thread will get more common as the sim improves and drivers have to worry about many different types of damage. Even the implementation of the car body rubbing on tyres will make many setups worthless unless they restrict lock or raise the ride height a little.
-- A perfect place for thread lock --
Very good post, Woz
Very good post, Woz
Here's my BL GP Race setup.
I don't use pedals or manual clutch, but should still be fine
The setup issue was related to the FZR, how does the XFG come into play here? Even so, the default setups are fine for 3 pedal manual clutch/shift racing - if you have problems with clutch heating with these setups then you are doing something wrong. Please post a replay of you driving with these setups, and we might finally be able to tell what you're doing wrong.
Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement (one that typifies the kind of bumptious and presumptious moralising that has clouded not only this thread but the whole clutch debate... and probably most other debates on this forum)
I think that some of the blame for any kind of misunderstanding in the userbase has to be dumped at the door of LFS' piecemeal development. AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).
The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?
I like the LFS design philosophy but surely the damage and wear should be a logical consequence of the engine model, not something tacked on like a ricer's aerofoil.
This thread is closed
Clutch, still!
(184 posts, closed, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG