So basically I'm suggesting that we get proper in car lcd displays that can show the necessary information through the display instead of using the hud.

The user would be given three options:
1) to run with the display (the suggestion)
2) to run with hud
3) to run with shift-f

The catch is, every single car in LFS could use the same display (like in nkpro) so the device is essentially the same in all cars (minus some less racy cars which could do with simpler timing displays). So you would only need to "configure" the system once and it would work the same way in all cars. Maybe one simple for the road cars and one more poofessional for the single seaters (). All that would then be needed is to put the damn box in right place in the cockpit (3dsmax work). Maybe even have few different spots in the cockpit for us mortals to choose from. If the font was enough big, there are really no issues with visibility, small fonts or small screen sizes.

Then there's one system that I'd like to see implemented in the display; a "performance monitoring system". A fancy sounding device that shows the absolute time difference between your current lap and your best lap while you driving. Like the "Timing Diff" in AnalyzeForSpeed. This gizmo doesn' really need the in-car lcd display but it is one of the ways to use it. However, LFS does not store those previous best times anywhere so one way to do this might be to use the RAF files for this, like loading the RAF files into the lcd gizmo.

I'm not saying that all HUD stuff should go into that small lcd, some stuff could be made with huds but differently.

Gizmos like this exist in real life. Basically it is a device that shows the time difference of your current lap compared to your previous best one. I read it from the latest ASS magazine, Alison Hine mentioned that she has used a system like this on real race cars.

Apparently it is something like this, based on GPS:
http://www.aim-sportline.com/p ... ection_car_gps-module.htm

I photoshopped few samples how it could look. Notice that the digits are readable even with that much jpg compression at 1280x960 resolution.

Although I'm a bit unsure whether LFS wants to go to this direction. The devs seem to kinda like adding and tweaking the hud stuff :/

I'd absolutely love something like this. I'm lost without the HUD at the moment, but would like to switch it off if things like lap number, times, gap ahead and gap behind etc, could be contained on an lcd display in the car - and then I'd not have any overlay on the screen except when I use F9-F12.

The road cars could have a simple one that just tracks your lap number, lap time, gap ahead and gap behind. Visually, it could be designed to look like a portable unit attached to the dash of a car, like a small TomTom or other satnav.

The racing cars (single seater and GTR) could of course have something more detailed, and bespoke to each car. Full timing analysis, telemetry (would also reduce reliance on F9-F12), race ordering, race timing, etc. Would add greatly to the immersion by having controllable/customisable dashboard displays and read-outs.

Only concern is the visibility - on small monitors you may struggle to read it. So maybe adjustable font size would be needed too. A bit like the LCD display on my digital SLR has two modes - "simple" and "everything". "Simple" mode displays almost as much as "everything", but with bigger text and symbols, and combining some icons/readouts. Whereas "everything" uses smaller text and symbols, but has a separate one for each option.

I would first wait the new cockpits for all cars.

I would definitely like moving stuff from the HUD to the "real" displays... other than brake balance and fuel. If the text/numbers gets too small, some kind of "quick zoom" would be nice. I also very much doubt that Scawen wants to go more "hardcore" way.

What I don't like is using the same kind of display for all cars - that takes realism away. Obviously for NKP it works because all the low-class single-seater cars in that game could have same kind of LCD system in irl too...

.

Road cars - not needed.
Racing cars - +1
Single seaters - +1

Yep. As long as NONE of the road cars get the display.

As someone already mentioned, the road cars could still get the display, but it would be a simple version like a satnav system.

Probably it would be best not to include it to road cars, only GTR's.

Yes! It should come with the addition of new cockpits coming up.

+1

I'd be in favour as long as the road cars only got a lap (not split) timer and nothing else and full rollcages. I'd like to see at least one of the racing cars kept pure though with proper analogue gauges and just a lap timer, maybe the FZR seeing as it has a gearbox and a real engine.

Quote from ajp71 :

I'd like to see at least one of the racing cars kept pure though with proper analogue gauges and just a lap timer, maybe the FZR seeing as it has a gearbox and a real engine.

Why? FZR surely doesn't look like a car from 80's. LCD displays have been around since early 90's.

Road cars could have something like this?

Quote from deggis :

Why? FZR surely doesn't look like a car from 80's. LCD displays have been around since early 90's.

Road cars could have something like this?

That appears to be an alarm clock (don't laugh my Dad does have a clock taped to the dash of road going racing car ). Generally road cars will not have the information linked to the car in anyway, that generally requires ECU integration (read source of electronic faults) or lots and lots of sensors shoved all over the place. Like I said I have never known a near standard road car with any kind of additional electronic information other than very basic laptimes (not splits).

Of course there's no reason why digital dashes can't be used but I assure you if you take a wonder down a typical GT grid you'll still see cars costing six figures with conventional dials, not because they it was any easier or cheaper to do it that way but because that was driver preference. In fact there are some of those digital dash displays like you pictured with an analogue tachometer

In my opinion, road cars should be kept as road cars. No rollcages, no additional meters.

Edit: Usually competitions requires some minimum safety requirements, suchs as main-current switch, rollcages and such. However, not all competitions.

Quote from Gekkibi :

In my opinion, road cars should be kept as road cars. No rollcages, no additional meters.

Edit: Usually competitions requires some minimum safety requirements, suchs as main-current switch, rollcages and such. However, not all competitions.

We've been through this one before and no body can actually name a sanctioning body that'll allow wheel to wheel racing on a high speed tarmac environment. The only standard exception to this rule is period racing cars that are allowed to race as they raced in period with regard to roll bar and harnesses are required (they still have to have a kill switch and extinguisher though). I think the only exception I've seen was someone who managed to race an XJS with no rollcage, that was some years ago though, certainly didn't meet regulations and I'm sure involved a lot of sweet talking to the old boys who remembered the good old days... It certainly wouldn't happen today. Given that LFS is a racing simulator there's little argument for why the cars shouldn't be given rollcages.

Quote from ajp71 :

We've been through this one before and no body can actually name a sanctioning body that'll allow wheel to wheel racing on a high speed tarmac environment. The only standard exception to this rule is period racing cars that are allowed to race as they raced in period with regard to roll bar and harnesses are required (they still have to have a kill switch and extinguisher though). I think the only exception I've seen was someone who managed to race an XJS with no rollcage, that was some years ago though, certainly didn't meet regulations and I'm sure involved a lot of sweet talking to the old boys who remembered the good old days... It certainly wouldn't happen today. Given that LFS is a racing simulator there's little argument for why the cars shouldn't be given rollcages.

Indeed, I don't know any "tarmac" racing where you can drive without proper modifications and safety equipments. But what about slalomcup, for example ("Autocross")?

Just had this in mind: You can chop the roof from UF-1, so why shouldn't you define if the car has roll bars or not?

Quote from ajp71 :

Generally road cars will not have the information linked to the car in anyway, that generally requires ECU integration (read source of electronic faults) or lots and lots of sensors shoved all over the place. Like I said I have never known a near standard road car with any kind of additional electronic information other than very basic laptimes (not splits).

You hoped for rollcages... if you already do that, why not install few censors too.

That pic is actually from Porsche 962C.

Quote :

Of course there's no reason why digital dashes can't be used but I assure you if you take a wonder down a typical GT grid you'll still see cars costing six figures with conventional dials, not because they it was any easier or cheaper to do it that way but because that was driver preference.

What you mean with "typical GT grid"? FZR and other GTRs in LFS looks like a properly built GT cars, not customer modified road cars, from like late '90s or earlyish 2000s. Even McLaren F1 GTR and Lotus Esprit V8 from 1996 (!) had LCDs. Not to mention modern GTs, like F430, DBR9, Saleen S7R, 997 RSR and MC12. And that pretty much covers most of a typical FIA GT grid. I really doubt you see lots of tachometers in today's GT cars.

Quote :

In fact there are some of those digital dash displays like you pictured with an analogue tachometer

Looks hideous


(from Dome S101.5 LMP)

Quote from Gekkibi :

Indeed, I don't know any "tarmac" racing where you can drive without proper modifications and safety equipments. But what about slalomcup, for example ("Autocross")?

Just had this in mind: You can chop the roof from UF-1, so why shouldn't you define if the car has roll bars or not?

Autocross doesn't require anything in terms of safety modifications (except possibly roll hoops on open cars), seat belts aren't required and serious cars don't use your typical supportive bucket seats (because being able to look round is important). Although interestingly the picture posted of that Mazda 2 autocross car did appear to have a rollcage.

Quote from deggis :

You hoped for rollcages... if you already do that, why not install few censors too.

Roll cages are a required safety device data logging/analysis systems are expensive, take a long time to install, add a maze of wiring all over the car and are never as quick and easy to use as they make out to be, most people running near standard road cars in racing events do not have the time, budget or desire to use such systems.

Quote :

That pic is actually from Porsche 962C.

Perfect proof that a car which will have no doubt had millions poured into maintaining it and could easily have had a digital dash or modern data logging system added to it at a negligible cost didn't. In fact they obviously did even seem to feel a need to install a simple lap timer and that a RadioShack alarm clock was the only important omission Porsche made when they designed the 962 cockpit.

Quote :

What you mean with "typical GT grid"? FZR and other GTRs in LFS looks like a properly built GT cars, not customer modified road cars, from like late '90s or earlyish 2000s. Even McLaren F1 GTR and Lotus Esprit V8 from 1996 (!) had LCDs. Not to mention modern GTs, like F430, DBR9, Saleen S7R, 997 RSR and MC12. And that pretty much covers most of a typical FIA GT grid. I really doubt you see lots of tachometers in today's GT cars.

AFAIK FIA GT requires a certain data logging/engine management system that comes with a digital dash (it's all specified in the regs) so there's a natural incentive to use the supplied dash and shiny digital things still seem popular with sponsors and silly people who are easily impressed who make up a large share of the crowd at any sporting event. The drivers considerations are generally ignored more the further up you go through motorsport. Look down at lower tier GT racing with paid drives and you'll suddenly see conventional dials and H-gate 'boxes on the cars driven by strange people who prefer them and because they've got ample funds and are not governed by sponsors. Some higher level racing series have still resisted the digital everything fad, including the Porsche Supercup, who use standard road dashes IIRC.

Of course digital dashes have their uses and there's no rational reason why every new road car doesn't use them, in the end of the day it all comes down to choice so I don't see why we shouldn't get that choice in the GTR cars where it'd be perfectly reasonable to have either IRL.

Quote from deggis :

Looks hideous


(from Dome S101.5 LMP)

Heavens no! You don't want an LCD analogue tacho, something more like this.

Quote from ajp71 :

Roll cages are a required safety device data logging/analysis systems are expensive, take a long time to install, add a maze of wiring all over the car and are never as quick and easy to use as they make out to be, most people running near standard road cars in racing events do not have the time, budget or desire to use such systems.

I meant like what we could have in the game, where obviously money is not a problem. If this Hyperactive's idea would materialize right now, having that in road cars would be more realistic than having HUD (obviously having nothing would be even more realistic, but I'm afraid that's not likely option in Scawen's eyes).

Quote :

Perfect proof that a car which will have no doubt had millions poured into maintaining it and could easily have had a digital dash or modern data logging system added to it at a negligible cost didn't. In fact they obviously did even seem to feel a need to install a simple lap timer and that a RadioShack alarm clock was the only important omission Porsche made when they designed the 962 cockpit.

I don't know did I misunderstood something but that picture is obviously not from year 1985 (link). When it's only used for some historic racing I doubt the owner wants to redesign the whole cockpit just because they can.

Quote :

AFAIK FIA GT requires a certain data logging/engine management system that comes with a digital dash (it's all specified in the regs) so there's a natural incentive to use the supplied dash

2008 GT Sporting Regulations from here, page 16:

61. Data recorder (the provisions of Articles
257.2.8 and 258.2.8 of Appendix J do not apply to this
device).
1 - A data recorder homologated by the FIA must be
used during the Championship. These devices will
serve exclusively for the storage of data and will be
used confidentially by the FIA alone.
These devices must be installed in strict compliance
with the relevant instructions.
It will be the responsibility of each participant to obtain
this device, to install it and to make it work correctly.
Cars eligible to take part in the Group 1 must be
equipped with this device.
2 - At the end of each free practice, pre-qualifying and
qualifying session, the competitors must make the
FIA-homologated data recorder available to the
Technical Delegate for checking.
3 - This device will measure:
- the engine speed
- the speed of two wheels, one front and one
rear (for this purpose, sensors will be fitted on the car
following the instructions given by the FIA)
- the depression in the air box
- the position of the accelerator
One or two channels will remain free for possible
additional sensors.

If it was some one certain device that FIA supplies then I don't understand why that talks about homologation. Actual technical regs doesn't mention anything about this or dash displays, at least I couldn't find.

Quote :

and shiny digital things still seem popular with sponsors and silly people who are easily impressed who make up a large share of the crowd at any sporting event.

Eh That is more important than likely fact that digital display provides more info, is more customizable and is easier to look at in 200 km/h? Not possible in a million years?

Quote :

The drivers considerations are generally ignored more the further up you go through motorsport. Look down at lower tier GT racing with paid drives and you'll suddenly see conventional dials and H-gate 'boxes on the cars driven by strange people who prefer them and because they've got ample funds and are not governed by sponsors.

If we are talking about the GTR cars in LFS, they don't look like they're from a national level amateur/gentleman series where the grids are consisted of old GT cars or even older cars from the past that were home-tuned to race. The LFS GTRs look like GT cars that just came off the factory (in year ~2000, by the little bit simplified looks of them). Except maybe XRR (relevance to XRG/XRT).

Quote :

Some higher level racing series have still resisted the digital everything fad, including the Porsche Supercup, who use standard road dashes IIRC.

You seem to remember wrong. Picture from the 997 GT3 Cup cockpit:

http://www.pistonheads.com/pic ... rsche_GT3_Cup_997-3-L.jpg (here)

Quote :

in the end of the day it all comes down to choice so I don't see why we shouldn't get that choice in the GTR cars where it'd be perfectly reasonable to have either IRL.

I don't know how we even got to this. I just said modern GTs are more likely to have LCD dashes (whether FIA blackmailed teams to use ones or not). We'll see in the next incomp. patch what Eric has chosen. I would put my money on digital ones.

Quote from ajp71 :

Heavens no! You don't want an LCD analogue tacho, something more like this.

Oops. I read badly.

Quote from deggis :

If we are talking about the GTR cars in LFS, they don't look like they're from a national level amateur/gentleman series where the grids are consisted of old GT cars or even older cars from the past that were home-tuned to race. The LFS GTRs look like GT cars that just came off the factory (in year ~2000, by the little bit simplified looks of them). Except maybe XRR (relevance to XRG/XRT).

When I said lower level GT racing with paid drives I was talking about major outfits running current model cars often with budgets close if not greater than non-works FIA GT teams.

That was the only part you wanted to reply?

I got that "lower tier" wrong (language barrier or something). So you mean something like British GT, French FFSA, Open GT, FIA GT3 and so on? Still don't believe when some team with limited budget gets new or used car and first thing they do is change dashboard and gearbox because oldschool is cool. GT3-spec cars are hardly what the LFS GTRs are trying to represent, we should be talking about SuperGT/JGTC.

Quote from deggis :

British GT, French FFSA, Open GT, FIA GT3

All of those series would probably have digital dashes, given that they buy them off the manufacturers or go for used cars from other series. Specifically FFSA, which runs older GT1 and GT3 cars.

Quote from deggis :

That was the only part you wanted to reply?

Sorry I couldn't see the pics of the GT3 car earlier, you're right the 997 Cup car has gone for the digital dash fad, but the 996 didn't.

Quote :

I got that "lower tier" wrong (language barrier or something). So you mean something like British GT, French FFSA, Open GT, FIA GT3 and so on? Still don't believe when some team with limited budget gets new or used car and first thing they do is change dashboard and gearbox because oldschool is cool. GT3-spec cars are hardly what the LFS GTRs are trying to represent, we should be talking about SuperGT/JGTC.

The championships you've listed are really national spin offs of FIA GT, with slower cars and some modified old big GT cars, generally these championships rely heavily on sponsorship and pulling crowds and there are less true amateur pay drives. Championships like Dutch Supercars and Britcar have new cars built specifically for them and are generally financed more from wealthy customers than sponsors and given that cars are being built from scratch to the drivers spec there's no reason why they can't choose whatever dash they like. Most will go for flashy LCD box things but you'll see some who prefer to go for the old fashioned option. Given that LFS doesn't have to be sponsor driven and most of the GTR cars look like they're rather dated (which isn't a bad thing) I see no logical argument to why we shouldn't be allowed to choose what dashboard we want.

EDIT - and without look very hard here's a recent car with FIA GT and LeMans pedigree

Quote from ajp71 :

Sorry I couldn't see the pics of the GT3 car earlier, you're right the 997 Cup car has gone for the digital dash fad, but the 996 didn't.

Ok.

Quote :

The championships you've listed are really national spin offs of FIA GT, with slower cars and some modified old big GT cars, generally these championships rely heavily on sponsorship and pulling crowds and there are less true amateur pay drives. Championships like Dutch Supercars and Britcar

Still, those two series are hardly what the GTRs in LFS are trying to represent (imho)

Quote :

Given that LFS doesn't have to be sponsor driven and most of the GTR cars look like they're rather dated (which isn't a bad thing) I see no logical argument to why we shouldn't be allowed to choose what dashboard we want.

We don't need to, Eric/Scawen makes that choice (like they already made with gearboxes).

Quote :

EDIT - and without look very hard here's a recent car with FIA GT and LeMans pedigree

But quite old model, actually it says 2000 there? If that even means year.

ps. What's with all these "digital fad", "flashy LCDs" terms?

+1. instead on the steering wheel, can't it be in the dashboard? it'll make it look like a sat-nav for the track.

Quote from deggis :

We don't need to, Eric/Scawen makes that choice (like they already made with gearboxes).

Yes they chose to leave us with an option of a proper naturally aspirated drivers car with an H-pattern gearbox, as is popular with drivers/teams where a sequential gearbox is not a required part of the looking high tech image. Even BMW recognised the potential value of H-pattern gearboxes in endurance races, useful for keeping drivers involved and awake with the driving experience in long stints.

Quote :

But quite old model, actually it says 2000 there? If that even means year.

It raced in LeMans/FIA GT/Dubai 24 hours in 2006, that's big money stuff in anybodies books and for whatever reason they decided to use a digital dash with real tachometer in top level competition 2 years ago. There are very few (if any) more recent cars from such serious competition for sale that can be easily found on the web because top teams often don't wish to sell last years car for fears it'll come back and beat them.

Quote :

ps. What's with all these "digital fad", "flashy LCDs" terms?

Generally they look high tech and complicated, having an analogue tacho on a colour LCD screen just takes the biscuit for complete stupidity and over complication. Some people will prefer them, that's fine but a significant minority don't like them and want conventional instrumentation, both in RL and in sim racing.